Building a rowhouse

New to downtown life? Have questions? Urban living expert, come share your thoughts.
earthling
One Park Place
One Park Place
Posts: 6427
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:27 pm

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by earthling »

^Concrete walls encasing the stairs? Eek.

CrossroadsUrbanApts
Parking Garage
Parking Garage
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:16 pm

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by CrossroadsUrbanApts »

How much would someone pay for a 2,000 SF new-construction rowhouse in Columbus Park? Walkable to RM and street car.

What's most important to you in terms of the size/configuration of the rowhouse? Total SF, number of bedrooms, 2-car garage, etc?

Would you pay more for the rowhouse if it had solar panels? What other key features do you look for?

flyingember
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 8923
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by flyingember »

CrossroadsUrbanApts wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:10 pm
How much would someone pay for a 2,000 SF new-construction rowhouse in Columbus Park? Walkable to RM and street car.

What's most important to you in terms of the size/configuration of the rowhouse? Total SF, number of bedrooms, 2-car garage, etc?

Would you pay more for the rowhouse if it had solar panels? What other key features do you look for?
2000 sq ft with urban land prices?

I would expect they go for $400k+

One thing that's missing in downtown apartment builds is 3BR and 4BR units. Space that can be an office, guest bedroom or the like too

Given they're almost all small lots in that neighborhood I picture a main floor with a single room for kitchen, living, dining. You see a lot like this on home renovation shows. if it's neighborhood walkable this doesn't need to be 1000 feet and single flex rooms can host a bigger event in many layouts
a second floor with the main suite and the guest br/office
a third floor with two more bedrooms.

it needs to have private space. on the high price end a rooftop deck, on the lower end a deck or garden

electric car chargers are going to be hotter than solar power in the next 5 years. So even if not installed, run conduit to support some sort of hookup. If there's no garage design it so the car could pull into a backyard pad and charge from a car port

alejandro46
New York Life
New York Life
Posts: 456
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:24 pm
Location: King in the North(Land)

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by alejandro46 »

CrossroadsUrbanApts wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:10 pm
How much would someone pay for a 2,000 SF new-construction rowhouse in Columbus Park? Walkable to RM and street car.

What's most important to you in terms of the size/configuration of the rowhouse? Total SF, number of bedrooms, 2-car garage, etc?

Would you pay more for the rowhouse if it had solar panels? What other key features do you look for?
I would guess 375-500k depending on furnishings.

2.5-3bdr, 2-4bdr probably varied unit sizes.

2-car garage probably a good idea for KCMO market.

Look at comparable Gallarie and 63rd street townhomes. 2-3bdr, 2.5-3baths. I think most tenants will want two car. I think the Tudors are an example of what not to do imo, very expensive with low bdr room count. Still big sqft though. Limited market will take awhile to sell at that price point. Also, agree w above, wiring a 240-v in garage is a good idea and cheaper to do now than after built. Only cost around $200 in my new build house.

I notice a lot of those really "skinny" rowhouses with 3 stories in Dallas with modern finishes and low setbacks, but KCMO market still is mostly two story townhomes. Would be cool to have a more modern, denser design, similar to the 63rd street units, that will cater to younger buyers. Random examples:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/942- ... 8115_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/4109 ... 3600_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/417- ... 9133_zpid/
Last edited by alejandro46 on Tue Jan 26, 2021 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

CrossroadsUrbanApts
Parking Garage
Parking Garage
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:16 pm

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by CrossroadsUrbanApts »

We're talking Columbus Park so I'm trying to figure out if $450K works as a sales price. The Galerie rowhomes mentioned above looked to sell for $395K at 1,647 SF or $240/SF.

At first blush I was thinking a mix of ~1,700SF 3BR units and 2,000SF 3+ BR units (with the + being either a den or home office type). A typical layout is first floor garage with small entry area (maybe a very small BR if possible), open concept living + kitchen on floor 2, and 3 bedrooms on floor 3.

I would think Columbus Park might see a slight price premium over 27th and McGee Trfy (Galerie townhomes) but correct me if I am wrong.

With construction and land prices where they are, it feels to me like $450K would have to be lowest price. Where I'm from in California that would be the deal of the century but I realize we are talking a very different market in KC. But there are a lot of people moving to KC from the coasts and Chicago and I'm thinking $450K wouldn't scare them off.

User avatar
smh
Supporter
Posts: 3618
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:40 pm
Location: Central Loop

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by smh »

CrossroadsUrbanApts wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 6:10 pm

At first blush I was thinking a mix of ~1,700SF 3BR units and 2,000SF 3+ BR units (with the + being either a den or home office type). A typical layout is first floor garage with small entry area (maybe a very small BR if possible), open concept living + kitchen on floor 2, and 3 bedrooms on floor 3.
I like the layout of the Gallerie townhomes for the most part. I would contrast that to the two townhomes on Wyandotte in River Market that seem very wonky in their layout.

Wonky being a scientific term of course.

Depending on the site, I'd value a usable front porch.

User avatar
normalthings
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 4245
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:52 pm

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by normalthings »

CrossroadsUrbanApts wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:10 pm
How much would someone pay for a 2,000 SF new-construction rowhouse in Columbus Park? Walkable to RM and street car.

What's most important to you in terms of the size/configuration of the rowhouse? Total SF, number of bedrooms, 2-car garage, etc?

Would you pay more for the rowhouse if it had solar panels? What other key features do you look for?
Looking at new SFH construction prices in the core, It looks like a 1,000 -2,000 sqft house is $4000,000-800,000. Those being built in areas away from retail, parks, etc. I would expect a more centralized project (ie. Columbus Park row house) to be able to compete.

Wants:
- deck of some sort
- 1 enclosed parking space
- heavily insulated walls between units

Nice but wouldn't pay more for:
- solar panels
- 2 + car parking

langosta
New York Life
New York Life
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 4:02 am

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by langosta »

I would love a 700-900 sqft rowhome.

User avatar
FangKC
City Hall
City Hall
Posts: 15091
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 10:02 pm
Location: Old Northeast -- Indian Mound

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by FangKC »

smh wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 6:17 pm
CrossroadsUrbanApts wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 6:10 pm

At first blush I was thinking a mix of ~1,700SF 3BR units and 2,000SF 3+ BR units (with the + being either a den or home office type). A typical layout is first floor garage with small entry area (maybe a very small BR if possible), open concept living + kitchen on floor 2, and 3 bedrooms on floor 3.
Depending on the site, I'd value a usable front porch.
I'm always really surprised that usable, covered front porches (not covered stoops) aren't utilized more in new residential designs. When I drive around my neighborhood in the warm months, a good percentage oi the houses with porches have people sitting on them. In a lot of big cities, older rowhouses have porches across the entire front facade, and they are the focus of summer life.

I don't have a covered porch. I hate when it's pouring rain and I am fumbling to unlock two locks and getting wet while doing it.

CrossroadsUrbanApts
Parking Garage
Parking Garage
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:16 pm

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by CrossroadsUrbanApts »

Great ideas and I appreciate the feedback.

I love my covered front porch! The first time in my life I've had something like that is the older KC house I live in now. I definitely use it a lot, and its nice that my street's houses all have them. Makes for a very community-oriented feel with neighbors out on their porches as well in fine weather.

flyingember
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 8923
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by flyingember »

FangKC wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:36 am

I'm always really surprised that usable, covered front porches (not covered stoops) aren't utilized more in new residential designs. When I drive around my neighborhood in the warm months, a good percentage oi the houses with porches have people sitting on them. In a lot of big cities, older rowhouses have porches across the entire front facade, and they are the focus of summer life.

I don't have a covered porch. I hate when it's pouring rain and I am fumbling to unlock two locks and getting wet while doing it.
We built one on our house. It's the style where the porch and entry are all one cover.

We don't sit outside often but it's nice to have. Our back deck in summer is too bright and hot until the afternoon so a covered porch provides needed outdoor space.

We have two can lights in it's ceiling so it can be used at night too if we wanted.

User avatar
FangKC
City Hall
City Hall
Posts: 15091
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 10:02 pm
Location: Old Northeast -- Indian Mound

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by FangKC »

I have a front deck, but it's not covered. I have the same problem during the daylight hours. It's too bright or hot to sit on.

I grew up in a house with a big front porch, and I liked to also sit outside when it rained.

I see old houses around the city that originally had porches, but have had them removed. They always looked naked to me.

shinatoo
Ambassador
Posts: 6623
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:20 pm

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by shinatoo »

My last three houses have had covered front porches. It is the most desirable feature. The one I have now is the biggest yet, and it has a ceiling fan, and I love it.
Quocunque Jeceris Stabit

User avatar
grovester
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 4169
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:30 pm
Location: KC Metro

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by grovester »

shinatoo wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:13 pm
My last three houses have had covered front porches. It is the most desirable feature. The one I have now is the biggest yet, and it has a ceiling fan, and I love it.
If they were a code requirement, the world would be a much better place.

User avatar
FangKC
City Hall
City Hall
Posts: 15091
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 10:02 pm
Location: Old Northeast -- Indian Mound

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by FangKC »

CrossroadsUrbanApts wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:10 pm
How much would someone pay for a 2,000 SF new-construction rowhouse in Columbus Park? Walkable to RM and street car.

What's most important to you in terms of the size/configuration of the rowhouse? Total SF, number of bedrooms, 2-car garage, etc?

Would you pay more for the rowhouse if it had solar panels? What other key features do you look for?
It seems like everyone wants a porch on their row house.

User avatar
wahoowa
New York Life
New York Life
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat May 02, 2015 2:57 pm
Location: CBD

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by wahoowa »

i am reasonably confident that CP is likely to yield a location premium over gallerie, especially for the first 5 or 10 buyers. housing stock for family w/ kids within easy walking distance to current streetcar is anemic.

the city homes properties on the west side of bridgeworks (~500 block of oak, etc.) sound reasonably comparable to what you're thinking about here in both scope and location. maybe they're a little bit smaller (maybe not really, since those have basements). they're also not physically connected and have mini-yards, either of which probably yields some premium. anyway i don't think columbus park would bear quite the same kind of location premium that i think those do. those seem pegged around the 500-550k mark in this market based on recent listings and sales. that seems a bit high for CP (compare 534 oak selling around 550k to the larger and 2 years newer 5th and charlotte townhouse that just sold closer to $475k). but maybe that's attainable as there's not much supply like it and you only need X buyers. this probably depends largely on location within CP (5th and charlotte is much more likely to get there than 5th and tracy, etc) and style and finish and interest rates when complete etc etc.

1 car garage would be bare minimum i think. 2 car gets you a wider potential set of buyers, but i don't think not having 2 would be a dealbreaker for a sizeable chunk of the target demographic. for practical purposes, 2 would make them easier to move though. again, location within CP probably affects peoples' willingness to buy a 1 to some extent. maybe you could market a flexible floor plan, 2 car if you need it 1 car + bonus room if you don't.

rooftop decks with privacy screening between units (by that i just mean you're not all looking at each other's roofs while up there) would be my main "fuck yeah" feature. i would pay a sizeable premium for that. i'm assuming based on your description of floor plan including garage (rear entrance, i would guess?) that a little private low maintenance "yard" for each unit probably isn't in the cards, though if it is that might be even better from a living in it perspective (though rooftop has the density advantage). big bonus points if outdoor space is oriented to the south or at least gets some southern exposure. personally, i would also pay a large premium to have an exterior venting range hood with an external blower, preferably with a nice short run straight through the external wall the range is on. and noise insulation obviously.

i wouldn't pay extra for solar or a second car garage or a third/fourth bedroom or bonus room or a stupid ugly fireplace. i feel like i would pay extra for an exterior material palette i like more than the usual lego brick looking stuff, but maybe i'm lying.

imo optimal layout for this in a dense neighborhood is garage/bonus (if any) on a daylight basement level w/ rear entrance only so you walk in front door on kitchen level, and you're only doing the full 2 flights of stairs on days where you drive instead of every day of the world. but i assume that's driven more by site considerations than user experience.

good indoor/outdoor, reasonable layout, no egregious design fuckups, pretty good location... 450k sounds about right, honestly a touch low. absolutely nail the indoor/outdoor experience and a plus location within CP and i would expect them to move pretty quickly at a number that starts with a 5.

Rabble
Strip mall
Strip mall
Posts: 174
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:58 pm

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by Rabble »

To me a big city rowhouse has no side yards, a porch in front without a yard and an ally behind. Between would be fire walls that would be partly owned by the connected houses. Would this even be allowed today with current building codes?

flyingember
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 8923
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by flyingember »

Rabble wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 9:20 pm
To me a big city rowhouse has no side yards, a porch in front without a yard and an ally behind. Between would be fire walls that would be partly owned by the connected houses. Would this even be allowed today with current building codes?
An alley behind is far from necessary.

I had family who owned an urban home in another city. Their front was a garage set close to the street. There was a private side alley serving their side entry door. Some had a small yard in the back which had walls surrounding it (depended on how close the neighbors were). There were no shared walls.

It was very urban in design and it was that way because of lack of alleys.

User avatar
KCPowercat
Ambassador
Posts: 30597
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2002 12:49 pm
Location: Quality Hill
Contact:

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by KCPowercat »

I'd say CP has higher neighborhood value than Gallerie but that could change as that immediate area gets more built on the surface lots.

Which part of CP? West or east? If looking at a rowhouse I think the features I'd look for would be the storage, the parking space (although maybe that's less important to some buyers), high ceilings, open concept, at minimum one outdoor space.

WoodDraw
Valencia Place
Valencia Place
Posts: 1854
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:53 pm

Re: Building a rowhouse

Post by WoodDraw »

For me outdoor finish, outdoor space, and a pretty open plan. I agree with high ceilings too.

I think your prices are about right.

Post Reply