Downtown Casino

Come here for discussion about the new downtown entertainment district.
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taxi
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Re: Downtown Casino

Post by taxi »

I wouldn't bet on it.

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TheLastGentleman
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Re: Downtown Casino

Post by TheLastGentleman »

DColeKC wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:12 pm
If you're going to allow casinos, why force them to be near a river which severely limits location options.
That may be the idea

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Re: Downtown Casino

Post by DColeKC »

TheLastGentleman wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:14 pm
DColeKC wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:12 pm
If you're going to allow casinos, why force them to be near a river which severely limits location options.
That may be the idea
I think originally it was just a compromise for the overly conservative religious folks. These days, I think casinos are not considered the devil like they were 20 and 30 years ago?

I like the idea of the states only allowing a very limited amount of casino licenses and getting a big cut of the revenue. In Maryland the state gets like 35% of the revenue which is billions.

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KCPowercat
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Re: Downtown Casino

Post by KCPowercat »

Missouri is just as conservative as 30 years ago.

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normalthings
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Re: Downtown Casino

Post by normalthings »

KCPowercat wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:16 pm
Missouri is just as conservative as 30 years ago.
I’m not sure about casinos though. I don’t think I know anyone who is against them for religious reasons anymore. Most people I know have played the lottery at least once. Maybe 40-50% have visited a casino before in some capacity.

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Re: Downtown Casino

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True

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DColeKC
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Re: Downtown Casino

Post by DColeKC »

KCPowercat wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:16 pm
Missouri is just as conservative as 30 years ago.
Missouri is still conservative but can’t imagine it’s even close to what it was 30 years ago with how drastically the nation has changed religiously. People who say they’re Christian is down by more than 10% in just the last decade while the amount of people who say they don’t believe in anything is up 10% in the same time frame. Church attendance is also drastically down.

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Re: Downtown Casino

Post by FangKC »

normalthings wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:16 pm
If this is being done w/o incentives. Could make more sense to buy the SKC parcel at Truman & Main and build the casino & hotel. Gives you a larger floor plate and you maintain space for that 4 Light living tower in the future.
I think DCole was suggesting a reuse scheme for the Mainstreet Theater and its' block if Alamo pulls out, and no other theater operator is found.

The theater building attached to a casino could be used for live entertainment venues, and event spaces. The auditoriums might be used as rooms for a comedy club, and the larger spaces for cabaret spaces, and shows. The Midland is usually one-off performances. The Mainstreet -- associated with a casino -- might be comedians and artists doing a longer-term residency.

Granted, there isn't a huge amount of sq. footage to create the large floors casinos normally have. But, the Isle of Capri isn't really a large casino.

I can't see a casino inside the business loop unless you can convince the new owners of Isle of Capri to move there instead of building new on the riverfront. This is because there is a cap to the number of casino licenses in Missouri. One would also need to convince state legislators to ditch the riverfront provisions of the casino law.

I believe the original intent of the riverfront casinos was to make riverfront land more attractive for development and taxation. I think it was an ill-conceived requirement because many of the state casinos are at risk during flood events. St. Joseph's casino has flooded multiple times. I think it's possible the law gets changed just because of the St. Joseph casino's situation. For years, they have discussed moving into downtown St. Joseph next to the Civic Arena.

https://www.newspressnow.com/news/local ... e39e4.html

https://www.kq2.com/content/news/Damage ... 75701.html

https://www.newspressnow.com/news/local ... ccb1c.html

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FangKC
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Re: Downtown Casino

Post by FangKC »

normalthings wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:18 pm
KCPowercat wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:16 pm
Missouri is just as conservative as 30 years ago.
I’m not sure about casinos though. I don’t think I know anyone who is against them for religious reasons anymore. Most people I know have played the lottery at least once. Maybe 40-50% have visited a casino before in some capacity.
You might be correct. My Pentecostal aunt worked at the St. Joseph casino for at least a decade. Another aunt, who was the widow of a Baptist minister, spent numerous weekends at the St. Joseph and KC casinos.

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Re: Downtown Casino

Post by flyingember »

KCPowercat wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:16 pm
Missouri is just as conservative as 30 years ago.
By no means is 1990 to 2020 as big a change as 1960 to 1990 but it's not as conservative as 30 years ago

In 1994 the state implemented one law which is still bleeding edge liberal and comes up as something all states should do

Statutory rape stopped being under 18, over 18 so it didn't criminalize high school students consenting. The state has a 14-17-21 consent law.
At 14 you can consent with anyone 14 to 20
At 17 you can consent with anyone
At 21 you can consent with anyone 17 and older.

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Re: Downtown Casino

Post by shinatoo »

Having the boats on the river goes back to the original amendment. Originally the gaming operations were only allowed while the boat was in motion on the water. You had to get a ticket and when your hour long cruse was over you had to disembark. This was done to get the amendment to pass as at the time the biggest worry was that people were going to be there all day blowing their life saving. With the cruise rule it was more like an event. I think they could also deny boarding if your daily losses were over a certain amount. Fuzzy on that one.

I assume the gambling interest has something to do with it, but shortly after the cruse's started the Port Authority said they were to dangerous to be out on the river. So they were docked and required to still have ticked boarding and gambling during "cruising" time. This lead to a court battle over the definition of a riverboat. So now the casino floor must be on a structure that is free floating in Missouri or Mississippi river water. At the time that I was working with Ameristar you had to have a Captain and an engine room. I thought there was a 400 ft max distance from the river rule too, not sure.

So that is why casinos off the river have the gaming floor floating in water that is pumped over the levy in to a retaining pool. And when I was involved there was a person on duty that was the "Captain". And the Ameristar in KC had a empty 4x4 closet on on each barge designated as the engine room.

Open boarding came later in another state wide vote.

IIRC

So with those rules the closest you are going to get to downtown would be in the River Market or West Bottoms.
Quocunque Jeceris Stabit

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Re: Downtown Casino

Post by DColeKC »

One of the most liberal states in regards to alcohol laws as well. I still remember being shocked the first time I was traveling around the Bible Belt and tried to buy beer on a Sunday afternoon and was told it’s illegal. I was more upset that there was no signage and I carried a case of beer from the back of Walmart to the counter just to be denied.

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Re: Downtown Casino

Post by KCPowercat »

DColeKC wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:55 am
One of the most liberal states in regards to alcohol laws as well. I still remember being shocked the first time I was traveling around the Bible Belt and tried to buy beer on a Sunday afternoon and was told it’s illegal. I was more upset that there was no signage and I carried a case of beer from the back of Walmart to the counter just to be denied.
AB did do some good

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Re: Downtown Casino

Post by DColeKC »

shinatoo wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:52 am
Having the boats on the river goes back to the original amendment. Originally the gaming operations were only allowed while the boat was in motion on the water. You had to get a ticket and when your hour long cruse was over you had to disembark. This was done to get the amendment to pass as at the time the biggest worry was that people were going to be there all day blowing their life saving. With the cruise rule it was more like an event. I think they could also deny boarding if your daily losses were over a certain amount. Fuzzy on that one.

I assume the gambling interest has something to do with it, but shortly after the cruse's started the Port Authority said they were to dangerous to be out on the river. So they were docked and required to still have ticked boarding and gambling during "cruising" time. This lead to a court battle over the definition of a riverboat. So now the casino floor must be on a structure that is free floating in Missouri or Mississippi river water. At the time that I was working with Ameristar you had to have a Captain and an engine room. I thought there was a 400 ft max distance from the river rule too, not sure.

So that is why casinos off the river have the gaming floor floating in water that is pumped over the levy in to a retaining pool. And when I was involved there was a person on duty that was the "Captain". And the Ameristar in KC had a empty 4x4 closet on on each barge designated as the engine room.

Open boarding came later in another state wide vote.

IIRC

So with those rules the closest you are going to get to downtown would be in the River Market or West Bottoms.
I think after floods and hurricanes, casinos can be within a 1000ft of the river bank. Insurance companies stopped working with those actually right on the rivers from what I’ve read.

I do think it would take some lobbying and serious money by a special interest group backed by casino developers to ever get done. It can be sold to the public easily based on tax revenue.

I don’t see it happening if anything because if parking. You’d need a large parking garage and close by surface parking. We all agree more surface parking is NOT needed downtown.

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Re: Downtown Casino

Post by DColeKC »

KCPowercat wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:57 am
DColeKC wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:55 am
One of the most liberal states in regards to alcohol laws as well. I still remember being shocked the first time I was traveling around the Bible Belt and tried to buy beer on a Sunday afternoon and was told it’s illegal. I was more upset that there was no signage and I carried a case of beer from the back of Walmart to the counter just to be denied.
AB did do some good
True and one successful casino would likely generate 4-5 times the tax revenue AB does in a year.

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normalthings
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Re: Downtown Casino

Post by normalthings »

I would think KC and STL(and STJ, etc) have an interest in keeping river boat gaming. Maybe a happy medium would be “within 2 miles” of the river.

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Re: Downtown Casino

Post by flyingember »

https://www.kansascity.com/news/local/a ... 12365.html

Riverside lost $2 million in casino revenyue through June 2020
It normally provides $10-11 million annually


alcohol consumption is 26.2 gallons per year. That's 3353 ounces.
AB has 30% of the beer market and beer is about 40% of the alcohol market

So the average person drinks 400 ounces of beer

Riverside has 3300 people. The national average is 70% are over 21. To keep is simple they all drink.
So that's 2310 drinkers

Let's use a 3% city sales tax rate since I didn't look it up.

an average beer is $1 per 12 oz can.
So the average person provides $12 in taxes for beer to Riverside

That's $27,720 in taxes from beer.


The casinos bring in to Riverside something like 360x as much in taxes.
Of course, a large portion is going to be from alcohol sales at the casino. They probably sell more alcohol than all other stores in Riverside combined.

Now, this is clearly wrong since Red-X drives business from outside the city limits with their huge alcohol selection, but it shows just how much alcohol they need to sell to earn more than the casino does for a city.

This is why Riverside wanted a casino. NKC is in the same situation where the casino is a big deal.

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Re: Downtown Casino

Post by FangKC »

normalthings wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:27 am
I would think KC and STL(and STJ, etc) have an interest in keeping river boat gaming. Maybe a happy medium would be “within 2 miles” of the river.
I think a major flood disaster might change the rule about being near the river. Ameristar is just a levee break from physical ruin.

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Re: Downtown Casino

Post by GRID »

No on a downtown casino. Visit other cities that have them. Depressing devoid of life dead zones with massive parking needs and they are so independent and self contained that they only take away from urban vibrancy.

Casinos are fine, but not in urban areas. The only place that can pull that off is Vegas and even they struggle with them outside the strip (ie downtown vegas).

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Re: Downtown Casino

Post by normalthings »

GRID wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:13 am
No on a downtown casino. Visit other cities that have them. Depressing devoid of life dead zones with massive parking needs and they are so independent and self contained that they only take away from urban vibrancy.

Casinos are fine, but not in urban areas. The only place that can pull that off is Vegas and even they struggle with them outside the strip (ie downtown vegas).
Could be okay if its a smaller facility with a big entertainment (Alamo Draft House renovation) and amenities (luxury hotel and spa ie 4 Seasons) focus. A sportsbook would overlap pretty well with the P&L demographic and events(watch parties).

When it comes to legalization. The state allows a set number of casino permits. A compromise would be to allow X new permits for casinos that can be built anywhere with the caveat that they are taxed at a much higher rate.

Cleveland rehabbed a historic building into a downtown Casino. Does not look bad to me. If they added street accessible F&B on the ground floor, it would be perfect. The 4 Light parcel is small enough that the groundfloor would be taken up by casino lobby, hotel lobby, and related function space.

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Last edited by normalthings on Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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