earthling wrote: ↑Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:16 pm
Downtown is struggling to get spec office building going so given this has public assistance would like to see a bit taller building with office component as well, even if coworking space initially, which is easier to rent out more quickly and could also use the hotel concierge services.
The Three Light Tower floor plates aren't really big enough to host modern office space. I don't think there is anything wrong with having 4 Light be hotel and residential only - especially if incorporates a city target or TJ
Yeah that would be great, but with downtown struggling to get spec office, this is an opportunity to get some in the project given existing public assistance. And the floor plates arnt too small, especially for coworking space or national companies opening a small regional office. Shared table space is also talking over cubicles, allowing more per floor.
earthling wrote: ↑Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:16 pm
Downtown is struggling to get spec office building going so given this has public assistance would like to see a bit taller building with office component as well, even if coworking space initially, which is easier to rent out more quickly and could also use the hotel concierge services.
The Three Light Tower floor plates aren't really big enough to host modern office space. I don't think there is anything wrong with having 4 Light be hotel and residential only - especially if incorporates a city target or TJ
Yeah that would be great, but with downtown struggling to get spec office, this is an opportunity to get some in the project given existing public assistance. And the floor plates arnt too small, especially for coworking space or national companies opening a small regional office. Shared table space is also talking over cubicles, allowing more per floor.
3 Light and likely 4 Light just aren't big enough to offer quality Class A Office Space. Offering sub-par space in one of those buildings isn't going to do us many favors.
Even if 3 Light was to offer an office component, it will open a year after 13th and Wyandotte (Incentives Approved, Plans filed), Strata (proposed, in committee), or Washington Square Park (Proposed).
normalthings wrote: ↑Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:41 pm
The Three Light Tower floor plates aren't really big enough to host modern office space. I don't think there is anything wrong with having 4 Light be hotel and residential only - especially if incorporates a city target or TJ
Yeah that would be great, but with downtown struggling to get spec office, this is an opportunity to get some in the project given existing public assistance. And the floor plates arnt too small, especially for coworking space or national companies opening a small regional office. Shared table space is also talking over cubicles, allowing more per floor.
3 Light and likely 4 Light just aren't big enough to offer quality Class A Office Space. Offering sub-par space in one of those buildings isn't going to do us many favors.
Even if 3 Light was to offer an office component, it will open a year after 13th and Wyandotte (Incentives Approved, Plans filed), Strata (proposed, in committee), or Washington Square Park (Proposed).
Strata does not have particularly large plates, neither does the 13th/Wyandotte office building proposed. If you factor just the base of Two Light, it's about the same plate size as HR Block building. Three Light base could be built up 20 floors of office/garage with the full footprint, another 10-12 floors of hotel with smaller floor plates and other 10-12+ floors residential, about a 40+ floor terraced building. Four Light spot has an L-shape, but still could pull off some office space too.
Class A office can get $20-$25/sqft, even $15 for Class B compared to $2.50-$3 territory for residential. Residential demand is higher than office but that will change over time and office can be more profitable. With a tri-functional building, the risks are mitigated when you have diversified uses, shared services, shared garage, shared everything and floors can adapt over time if needed. Is why it's becoming more common. Starting with a short term co-working lease can also fill the building more quickly then adapt to longer term full lease later if it makes sense.
Two Light will offer some leases that include access to the co-working space. The problem with two light so far has been parking. It’s a constant battle. Retail clients obviously want parking for customers. CO-working space needs parking and residents expect to have some parking available for guests.
They build out these garages to accommodate residents and have some public parking available but it’s never enough. To actually accommodate all the various uses of the building, the parking garage would need a few additional floors. Then of course it sits with a few empty levels on the weekends unless there’s event traffic.
I’m sure larger cities are a different story with great public transportation but we all know KC is obsessed with parking.
DColeKC wrote: ↑Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:32 am
Two Light will offer some leases that include access to the co-working space. The problem with two light so far has been parking. It’s a constant battle. Retail clients obviously want parking for customers. CO-working space needs parking and residents expect to have some parking available for guests.
There's 2000 parking spots one block north on Walnut and another 2000 an additional block further. There's not a lack of parking, the problem is people still say one block is too far, something fully debunked with the streetcar.
Given that office will use spaces during day and some residents are gone during day it might be manageable. And KC is now able to do hotels with little to no parking needed.
DColeKC wrote: ↑Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:32 am
Two Light will offer some leases that include access to the co-working space. The problem with two light so far has been parking. It’s a constant battle. Retail clients obviously want parking for customers. CO-working space needs parking and residents expect to have some parking available for guests.
There's 2000 parking spots one block north on Walnut and another 2000 an additional block further. There's not a lack of parking, the problem is people still say one block is too far, something fully debunked with the streetcar.
If it's a battle we're fighting the wrong battle.
I'm not saying you're wrong. The people on this board know this but the greater population of Kansas City doesn't care. Have you read the comments anytime they talk about moving the K downtown? "NO PARKING, DOWNTOWN IS A NIGHTMARE, WHERE WOULD WE TAILGATE" etc.
There's not an actual parking problem, there's a parking problem perception. People in KC love their cars.
earthling wrote: ↑Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:50 am
Given that office will use spaces during day and some residents are gone during day it might be manageable. And KC is now able to do hotels with little to no parking needed.
Residential and public parking need to be separate. Residents park in nested parking and pay for a particular space, so even when they're gone, it's still only theirs to park in. Also, many of these retail locations are open 12 hours or more.
Can dedicate 1/3 to residential/office each at higher cost for reserved, and 1/3 shared around market rate unreserved, where daytime office and residents working elsewhere may not overlap as much. There is the challenge for office as you have a lot more office workers per floor than residents. However office parking perception is a challenge no matter where new downtown construction occurs. And hotel can be pulled off with little to none.
Five years ago I would have favored incentives for parking garages that spur development but it should be redirected to outskirts of downtown along streetcar or even better, free bus. Free city-wide bus can't come fast enough.
earthling wrote: ↑Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:05 am
Can dedicate 1/3 to residential/office each at higher cost for reserved, and 1/3 shared around market rate unreserved, where daytime office and residents working elsewhere may not overlap as much. There is the challenge for office as you have a lot more office workers per floor than residents. However office parking perception is a challenge no matter where new downtown construction occurs. And hotel can be pulled off with little to none.
Five years ago I would have favored incentives for parking garages that spur development but it should be redirected to outskirts of downtown along streetcar or even better, free bus. Free city-wide bus can't come fast enough.
Do you think people will honestly utilize the bus, even if free? From the people I talk to, the perception now is the bus isn't clean, safe and seems to have the homeless population as frequent riders. I know the streetcar has had to work hard to keep up a high standard, assuming the same concept would be applied to the busses, but I can't see downtown business folks being happy about driving 20-30 minutes, parking on the outskirts, getting on a bus, riding 3-5 blocks to get to work.
I'm talking city or metro wide free bus. Given the metro has gotten a taste of free streetcar that does have the occasional homeless people, I think many will give free bus a shot. And the newer buses with digital panels, USB charging are nicer than avg. Not everyone will bite of course but a 15%-20% increase in usage into downtown would be significant enough to be able to reduce need for downtown parking. Many downtown white collar workers who live along a line to the burbs would likely try at least once. There are many Brooksider white collar workers who take MAX to downtown for work. I use that line most often and know who the daily riders are. And there are already JoCo/Northland lines into downtown with white collar workers, usage would likely jump significantly if free.
Last edited by earthling on Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
A free bus is another example of induced demand, just like free parking. (Free to the end user)
There's tons of people that if given the choice between paying for a car and paying for a bus pass they'll pay for the car. Many will switch to the bus because a free bus vs paying for a car is an entirely different decision.
I'm amazed there's a parking problem in Two Light given economics 101 says you raise prices until demand stops growing and get people to look for alternatives. It's the same as the empty retail spaces. If the price isn't right don't complain you have a leasing problem, change the price until you don't.
Last edited by flyingember on Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Free bus probably best/fastest/broadest path to getting a higher % of metro to use transit, allowing for less parking needed. Rail lines will take long time and serve less people. Even with streetcar expansions, we need to get into mode that bus is an extension for streetcar spines, not develop a streetcar/rail only reliance. Those living sanitized unadventurous lives won't get it but more Millennials do, including educated/well traveled white collar workers. As a regular bus rider, I've seen the changes over the years. Minneapolis has the highest bus ridership I've seen of white collar workers in Midwest (anecdotally), blended in with <gasp!>, 'street people'.
KCPowercat wrote: ↑Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:15 am
Yes "normal" people ride the bus. Jfc.
I think the average KC resident only goes by what they see at bus stops, and I don't see too many (zero) business casual, professional looking people waiting on the bus at any of those. Obviously "normal" people ride the bus, but we are talking about perception here.
KCPowercat wrote: ↑Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:09 pm
It sounds like your perception based on looking at a bus stop? What a poor way to determine nobody rides the bus.
I don't think its DColeKC's literal perception. I agree that many people (unfortunately) think how he described.
Last edited by normalthings on Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A better anecdotal measure is to actually ride the bus. Most office workers at downtown bus stops will mainly appear during 4-6pm rush hours. As an actual rider, Main MAX is typically well over half what appear to be downtown workers during rush hours. Even higher % for N Oak. The usage of suburban lines in/out of downtown would likely triple as well if free to ride. And that would cut down on need for downtown parking. Not everyone would go for it but would expect a large % to, enough to reduce need for downtown parking. We need a trial long enough to give it a shot.
There is also free wifi on the buses in addition to USB charging ports on newer ones. Can be on work laptop during suburban commute rather than driving. Many will give it a shot and realize the benefits. Not all but would expect enough to justify free bus long term and impact downtown parking needs. And maybe Midtown will get out of the suburban car dependency mode and the suburban development that has been creeping in last couple decades.
KCPowercat wrote: ↑Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:09 pm
It sounds like your perception based on looking at a bus stop? What a poor way to determine nobody rides the bus.
I don't think its DColeKC's literal perception. I agree that many people (unfortunately) think how he described.
And let's be honest, someone's first experience with the bus is going to be at a bus stop or crossing the street to it. At one point one stop was literally at a mud puddle across the street from the Sporting KC training facility with no crosswalk or sidewalk to get there. We will spend millions on the destination with parking and $0 on a concrete slab for the bus.
Are you remotely surprised someone might think poorly of the bus in general looking at the stops?
