Two Light - 14th & Grand

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Riverite
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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Post by Riverite »

I’m more concerned about getting it done and pushing high density on the remaining parcels, and mandating ground floor retail (looking at you Waddell and reed) for any adjacent blocks

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

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DColeKC wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:56 pm
They have no expectations that it won’t be 95%+ open to the public. The park would be a grand public part with a tiny percentage fenced in for residents to let’s their dogs run off a leash. I’m not sure why this is so radical for some people to accept.
Because it's going to be a small park that's incredibly expensive to build. Every square inch of that thing should be utilized to its maximum possible value. Having a private dog park is impossibly dumb for so many reasons.

Without doing the research, I would imagine that it would easily be the world's most expensive dog park. Maybe that can be its claim to fame. "People from far and wide come to watch the most exclusive dogs in Kansas City poop in the world's most expensive dog enclave."
Property Value
Residential value having a huge park across the street
Connecting the crossroads and PNL district
Squashing interstate road noise
Views from balconies
On and on.
And for all of these reasons, Cordish would already be getting a huge ROI and adding a private element would be unnecessary and short-sighted, especially if that private element is a glorified dog bathroom.
Last edited by TheBigChuckbowski on Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Post by normalthings »

TheBigChuckbowski wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:30 pm
DColeKC wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:56 pm
They have no expectations that it won’t be 95%+ open to the public. The park would be a grand public part with a tiny percentage fenced in for residents to let’s their dogs run off a leash. I’m not sure why this is so radical for some people to accept.
Because it's going to be a small park that's incredibly expensive to build. Every square inch of that thing should be utilized to its maximum possible value. Having a private dog park is impossibly dumb for so many reasons.

Without doing the research, I would imagine that it would easily be the world's most expensive dog park. Maybe that can be its claim to fame. "People from far and wide come to watch the most exclusive dogs in Kansas City poop in the world's most expensive dog enclave."
If Cordish pays to study a cap park, pays to build a cap park, and bulldozes their existing dog park for a cap park, I am 100% okay with them dedicating 5% to dog park use.


I would be perfectly fine if the park had a a few restaurants on the east and west ends too.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Post by TheBigChuckbowski »

normalthings wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:51 pm
TheBigChuckbowski wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:30 pm
DColeKC wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:56 pm
They have no expectations that it won’t be 95%+ open to the public. The park would be a grand public part with a tiny percentage fenced in for residents to let’s their dogs run off a leash. I’m not sure why this is so radical for some people to accept.
Because it's going to be a small park that's incredibly expensive to build. Every square inch of that thing should be utilized to its maximum possible value. Having a private dog park is impossibly dumb for so many reasons.

Without doing the research, I would imagine that it would easily be the world's most expensive dog park. Maybe that can be its claim to fame. "People from far and wide come to watch the most exclusive dogs in Kansas City poop in the world's most expensive dog enclave."
If Cordish pays to study a cap park, pays to build a cap park, and bulldozes their existing dog park for a cap park, I am 100% okay with them dedicating 5% to dog park use.
If they pay for 100% of the costs, maybe. But, there's zero chance of that.

And, to clarify, I think it would be dumb for Cordish to want to put in a dog park, even if they pay for the whole thing. You can have your investment facing a grand/amazing urban park that brings visitors to your doorstep or your investment can face a resident-only dog park. Way better than a highway but idiotic considering the investment and potential.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Post by smh »

DColeKC wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:09 pm

The project doesn’t get done without private money and I don’t think it’s unacceptable for them to want something in return. Especially if they intend to maintain it instead of the city.
What they get in return is a beautiful multi-block greenspace right outside their front door. That's the amenity. That's what their money is buying.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Post by horizons82 »

Wouldn't the political compromise be a park that's an included amenity for Cordish residents but is "open" to residents as long as they pay a high annual fee?

You ward away most non-Cordish users with the entry price but still can claim it's accessible to all, generate a small income, and if pressed point to park maintenance for the high price point.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Post by smh »

horizons82 wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:52 pm
Wouldn't the political compromise be a park that's an included amenity for Cordish residents but is "open" to residents as long as they pay a high annual fee?

You ward away most non-Cordish users with the entry price but still can claim it's accessible to all, generate a small income, and if pressed point to park maintenance for the high price point.
Can I get 3 points per dollar spent?

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Post by horizons82 »

smh wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:54 pm
horizons82 wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:52 pm
Wouldn't the political compromise be a park that's an included amenity for Cordish residents but is "open" to residents as long as they pay a high annual fee?

You ward away most non-Cordish users with the entry price but still can claim it's accessible to all, generate a small income, and if pressed point to park maintenance for the high price point.
Can I get 3 points per dollar spent?
Mmm, depends on your credit score.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Post by DColeKC »

TheBigChuckbowski wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:53 pm
normalthings wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:51 pm
TheBigChuckbowski wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:30 pm


Because it's going to be a small park that's incredibly expensive to build. Every square inch of that thing should be utilized to its maximum possible value. Having a private dog park is impossibly dumb for so many reasons.

Without doing the research, I would imagine that it would easily be the world's most expensive dog park. Maybe that can be its claim to fame. "People from far and wide come to watch the most exclusive dogs in Kansas City poop in the world's most expensive dog enclave."
If Cordish pays to study a cap park, pays to build a cap park, and bulldozes their existing dog park for a cap park, I am 100% okay with them dedicating 5% to dog park use.
If they pay for 100% of the costs, maybe. But, there's zero chance of that.

And, to clarify, I think it would be dumb for Cordish to want to put in a dog park, even if they pay for the whole thing. You can have your investment facing a grand/amazing urban park that brings visitors to your doorstep or your investment can face a resident-only dog park. Way better than a highway but idiotic considering the investment and potential.
First of all, your assumption that the light buildings are just full of wealthy elites is fucking disgusting. Secondly, you severely underestimate how beneficial it is to let your dog safely off a lease within steps of your apartment in a downtown apartment building.

And lastly, it will be a large 3+ block park vastly open to anyone who wants to utilize it. One of the most impactful changes in downtown and much needed. It won’t happen without millions of private dollars and once again, I really get baffled that some people would rather not have the project done at all if that means a tiny percentage is reserved for a private dog run.

And what’s the point of “bringing people to your doorstep” if they never go in and speak to a leasing agent? Considering Cordish is in well over half a billion invested in KC at this point, I think they’ve seriously considered how to invest their money. The dog park would likely barely be visible from any residents patios and I’m sure they’d put in place the proper landscaping to hide the area. You act like the whole area would be a dog park when I’m telling you it would at most be slightly bigger than what’s already there. Which is what, 8ft wide by 80ft deep?
Last edited by DColeKC on Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Post by DColeKC »

horizons82 wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:52 pm
Wouldn't the political compromise be a park that's an included amenity for Cordish residents but is "open" to residents as long as they pay a high annual fee?

You ward away most non-Cordish users with the entry price but still can claim it's accessible to all, generate a small income, and if pressed point to park maintenance for the high price point.
You mean specifically the dog park section?

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Post by TheBigChuckbowski »

DColeKC wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:05 pm
you severely underestimate how beneficial it is to let your dog safely off a lease within steps of your apartment in a downtown apartment building.
Hundreds of millions of dollars? That's what it's worth? That's what it'll cost.

You severely underestimate the value of the land that would be created here. You can put a dog park anywhere, they're dogs. They don't care. Why put it on what will literally be the most expensive piece of land in the entire region? Think about the things that could be included in this park but won't be if an exclusive dog park is wasting space.
DColeKC wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:05 pm
And lastly, it will be a large 3+ block park vastly open to anyone who wants to utilize it.
That's not large. Swope Park is a large park. All the noise created by the dogs barking will be audible on the opposite side of the park creating a sub-standard experience for everyone else trying to enjoy, what could/should be, a world-class park.
DColeKC wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:05 pm
And what’s the point of “bringing people to your doorstep” if they never go in and speak to a leasing agent?
Because A. they have a huge district behind those residential buildings with bars and restaurants and B. it will be a giant marketing tool, not only because of the people in the park seeing the building but because people would want to live next to/overlook the park. Nobody wants to live next to a dog park, other than for the utility, and major infrastructure projects shouldn't be done for the utility of some dog owners in a couple buildings.

Also, you already know this, as you mentioned upthread: "Residential value having a huge park across the street", "Views from balconies".
DColeKC wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:05 pm
The dog park would likely barely be visible from any residents patios and I’m sure they’d put in place the proper landscaping to hide the area.
Will they be able to hear it, though? Because you can't landscape away the noise of dozens of dogs barking.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Post by horizons82 »

DColeKC wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:07 pm
You mean specifically the dog park section?
Yes or whatever other private amenity spaces they envision.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Post by DColeKC »

TheBigChuckbowski wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:28 pm
DColeKC wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:05 pm
you severely underestimate how beneficial it is to let your dog safely off a lease within steps of your apartment in a downtown apartment building.
Hundreds of millions of dollars? That's what it's worth? That's what it'll cost.

You severely underestimate the value of the land that would be created here. You can put a dog park anywhere, they're dogs. They don't care. Why put it on what will literally be the most expensive piece of land in the entire region? Think about the things that could be included in this park but won't be if an exclusive dog park is wasting space.
DColeKC wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:05 pm
And lastly, it will be a large 3+ block park vastly open to anyone who wants to utilize it.
That's not large. Swope Park is a large park. All the noise created by the dogs barking will be audible on the opposite side of the park creating a sub-standard experience for everyone else trying to enjoy, what could/should be, a world-class park.
DColeKC wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:05 pm
And what’s the point of “bringing people to your doorstep” if they never go in and speak to a leasing agent?
Because A. they have a huge district behind those residential buildings with bars and restaurants and B. it will be a giant marketing tool, not only because of the people in the park seeing the building but because people would want to live next to/overlook the park. Nobody wants to live next to a dog park, other than for the utility, and major infrastructure projects shouldn't be done for the utility of some dog owners in a couple buildings.

Also, you already know this, as you mentioned upthread: "Residential value having a huge park across the street", "Views from balconies".
DColeKC wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:05 pm
The dog park would likely barely be visible from any residents patios and I’m sure they’d put in place the proper landscaping to hide the area.
Will they be able to hear it, though? Because you can't landscape away the noise of dozens of dogs barking.
I think you’re envisioning a a Bar-K type place with tons of dogs. We would be looking at a small area and with a few dogs in there at one time. It’s an incredibly simple, small space. I think if you’re telling a large area open to all, sure, it could be a problem.

As someone who has been downtown for ten years or more now, this would be a massive green space to me. Sure, tiny when you compare it to a suburban or city park that’s been a park for decades. You’re talking about a 5acre park in the heart of downtown KC. You honestly think a dog run that takes up 0.09 acres will be the focal point or a hindrance?

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Post by moderne »

If it keeps dog poo off the adjacent streets, curbs and the rest of the freeway cap I can live with it. But making it a free amenity for Light residents and a high priced membership for residents of other DT buildings would be better for DT and better PR for Cordish. Has anyone ever seen the vacant lot across the street from the Sulgrave/Regency? A real biohazard.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Post by TheLastGentleman »

Maybe I’m just stupid, but I cannot fathom why anyone with a plot of private land within a brand new downtown park built at great expense to suspend over an active freeway, would voluntarily choose to use that precious land for as uninspired a purpose as a dog park. Look at the Bryant Park Grill in New York. The perfect example of a beautiful private use of space in a relatively compact urban park

Image

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Post by DColeKC »

TheLastGentleman wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:38 pm
Maybe I’m just stupid, but I cannot fathom why anyone with a plot of private land within a brand new downtown park built at great expense to suspend over an active freeway, would voluntarily choose to use that precious land for as uninspired a purpose as a dog park. Look at the Bryant Park Grill in New York. The perfect example of a beautiful private use of space in a relatively compact urban park

Image
Once again. 0.09 acres of a 5 acre area. I think it’s apparent how many people don’t understand how impactful being dog friendly is to residential buildings.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Post by normalthings »

TheLastGentleman wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:38 pm
Maybe I’m just stupid, but I cannot fathom why anyone with a plot of private land within a brand new downtown park built at great expense to suspend over an active freeway, would voluntarily choose to use that precious land for as uninspired a purpose as a dog park. Look at the Bryant Park Grill in New York. The perfect example of a beautiful private use of space in a relatively compact urban park

Image
Maybe I am misunderstanding but it sounds like Cordish just wants a few hundred sqft in a corner of the park for their dogs. Just a place for the dogs to go to the bathroom at. Cordish already has a dog park in part of the ROW that will become the loop cap park. I don't see the issue with Cordish getting a replacement dog park of the same size. Frankly, I don't have an issue with them getting a bigger dog park if they are going to fund the cap park. It would also benefit everyone if Cordish's 1,000 apartments along i670 had a dedicated place for pets to potty that gets cleaned regularly.

Why is there an all or nothing mentality quickly spreading across KC?

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Post by Riverite »

normalthings wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:07 am
TheLastGentleman wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:38 pm
Maybe I’m just stupid, but I cannot fathom why anyone with a plot of private land within a brand new downtown park built at great expense to suspend over an active freeway, would voluntarily choose to use that precious land for as uninspired a purpose as a dog park. Look at the Bryant Park Grill in New York. The perfect example of a beautiful private use of space in a relatively compact urban park

Image
Maybe I am misunderstanding but it sounds like Cordish just wants a few hundred sqft in a corner of the park for their dogs. Just a place for the dogs to go to the bathroom at. Cordish already has a dog park in part of the ROW that will become the loop cap park. I don't see the issue with Cordish getting a replacement dog park of the same size. Frankly, I don't have an issue with them getting a bigger dog park if they are going to fund the cap park. It would also benefit everyone if Cordish's 1,000 apartments along i670 had a dedicated place for pets to potty that gets cleaned regularly.

Why is there an all or nothing mentality quickly spreading across KC?
I don’t see why a small plot to replace something they own is such a big deal

The sooner we can get this park the better, as this can be used as a public amenity a couple of blocks away.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Post by KCPowercat »

A small private dog run doesn't seem like a big deal to me. Of course I'm tired of dog owners that let their dogs trip me up as I walk by them and digging their crow on the street so win win.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Post by DColeKC »

KCPowercat wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:42 am
A small private dog run doesn't seem like a big deal to me. Of course I'm tired of dog owners that let their dogs trip me up as I walk by them and digging their crow on the street so win win.
What about the dog owners who don’t pick up after their dogs when they shit on the sidewalks?! That’s the worst.

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