KC Live direct competition with Village West

trailerkid · Post by **trailerkid** » Sat Jan 03, 2004 6:48 pm

I'm not sure where it was mentioned, but the contract between Cordish and the city has a clause where if Cordish does not deliver what they have promised (Block E) they will have to repay the city. I assume the repayment would be dealing with tenant selection. But if Cordish brings in Borders, Applebee's and Eckerd instead of House of Blues, Gameworks and Hard Rock will that mean they have to repay the city?

It's also important to know that Cordish holds ownership in the center. Failing will not be an easy option. KC Live will have to fit in the portfolio with their other properties like Power Plant Live.

tat2kc · Post by **tat2kc** » Sat Jan 03, 2004 6:54 pm

I think the agreement with Cordish helps to reduce the risk the city is taking on. If the occupancy rates and income to the city don't measure up, then Cordish is on the hook. I think speaks well of Cordish, and the city planners.

rxlexi · Post by **rxlexi** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 1:44 am

Okay I think everyone agrees the KC Live! name should go; I really don't want this entertainment district, touristy as it may become, to share a name with other similar developments across the country. Aggh I wish the Power and Light District name wasn't already shamed and gone, because I've always loved it. The KC Strip is actually not bad, I think people would be into the humor. What about using various Marriot/Barney Allis style animated lighting effects throughout the district and calling it KC Lights or something? That would be unique and certainly would reinforce that downtown is back, alive, safe and bright. Any other ideas?

GRID · Post by **GRID** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 1:48 am

I agree, I didn't like the name either but at the time, I couldn't complain.

But I can't think of anything else either.

FangKC · Post by **FangKC** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:20 am

The mosre I think about it, the more I think it should be called Electric Park. It's a name with a historic KC association. In addition, they could use the look of the old Electric Park as a guide in the design of the district, yet update it with the new electronic signage.

Photos of old Electric Park:

Take a look at the old postcards:

Article describing Electric Park:

Wouldn't it be cool to take some design cues from this old park and incorporate them into the new entertainment district? Having all those lights downtown would brighten up a formerly dark, and barren wasteland.

Some quotes from the article:

"The park of music, rides and thrills was named for the 100,000 electric
light bulbs outlining buildings and rides, and after dark they turned
night into day. Enthusiastic writers termed it "the great white city of
Brush Creek valley...

...There was a charge for swimming, but none for the famous night spectacle
of "living Statuary" at the fountain in the lake. Here beautiful,
shapely young women on a pedestal emerged from the fountain every hour
of the evening, as if by magic, and held the crowd spellbound with their
graceful poses, while flooded with colored lights that merged, blended
and changed shades over their lovely forms.

This spectacle was perhaps the most widely known feature of the park.
The owners had installed a $70,000 fountain in the lake with a device
that elevated a pedestal out of the water, bringing the classic group up
from the fountain's base (actually the women's dressing room). Of
course, not a drop of water touched the women but it appeared otherwise
viewed through the high encircling fountain spray.

After several breathtaking moments with the colored lights playing on
the immobile group, the entire scene sank out of sight, only to reappear
with new groupings and color."

scooterj · Post by **scooterj** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 8:38 am

Holy crap! I had heard of Electric Park before but had no idea it was so cool!

If the name is resurrected for this project, I hope the bring back that fountain of women.

QueSi2Opie · Post by **QueSi2Opie** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:39 pm

FangKC wrote:The entertainment district will be successful if it has a mix of local clubs like America's Pub, Grand Emporium, Beaumont Club, The Brick, Harpos, Davey's Uptown Club, New Pointe Grill, Blayney's and The Hurricane.

America's Pub is a chain, they have one in Wichita, Kansas, St. Louis, Missouri and Columbus, Ohio. I don't know about Harpos, but they do have one in Columbia, MO.

trailerkid · Post by **trailerkid** » Mon Jan 19, 2004 4:19 pm

I don't think if Legends starts picking up some big names that means KC Live is over or vice versa.

For instance,
Twin Cities have a Jillian's and a Gameworks downtown

Denver has a Jillian's and 2 Dave & Buster's

Indianapolis has a Jillian's and a GameWorks Studio

KC has 0

trailerkid · Post by **trailerkid** » Wed May 05, 2004 5:17 pm

With KC Live! groundbreaking in the Spring of 2005, there is a direct possiblity that Legends and KC Live could be under construction and finish at/near the same time. Legends doesn't appear to be starting construction either this spring or summer. Unless Legends gets some activity going on out there ASAP, I couldn't see it opening on any faster a timeline than KC Live-- that is unless KC Live get further delayed....

GRID · Post by **GRID** » Wed May 05, 2004 5:58 pm

Can we stop comparing KC Live (stupid name) to the Legends now? Unless we are going to compare KC Live to all the other suburban shopping centers going up around the city.

The Legends is the most overated suburban shopping area I have seen in my life.

It's a nice area, but I would be be surprised if the Legends even compares to Summit Woods or Barry Woods etc.

I think KCK would be thrilled to have just one of the shopping centers located in the Northland, East Jack or Johnson County, but I'm tired of people comparing urban KCMO stuff to the speedway area, it's just stupid.

FangKC · Post by **FangKC** » Wed May 05, 2004 7:43 pm

There is/are Harpos in St. Louis too.

trailerkid · Post by **trailerkid** » Wed May 05, 2004 10:34 pm

GRID wrote:Can we stop comparing KC Live (stupid name) to the Legends now? Unless we are going to compare KC Live to all the other suburban shopping centers going up around the city.

The Legends is the most overated suburban shopping area I have seen in my life.

It's a nice area, but I would be be surprised if the Legends even compares to Summit Woods or Barry Woods etc.

I think KCK would be thrilled to have just one of the shopping centers located in the Northland, East Jack or Johnson County, but I'm tired of people comparing urban KCMO stuff to the speedway area, it's just stupid.

Whether you like it or not...the comparisons are warranted.

Although they are complete opposites in their format, right now KC Live and Legends are in competition. The people who "make a weekend" of KC will probably be faced with the choice of one or the other to stay at, visit, dine at, or walk around. Urban vs. suburban tourism-- like it or not. Things could change and KC Live could go more neighborhood retail as Cauthen hinted at and Legends could fail to draw what they said they would (Virgin, Hard Rock), but right now they are both trying to do somewhat similar things-- especially with the prospect of KC Live being more retail than originally intended.

Saying Legends will be like Summitwoods, but worse is taking thing very, very far. Although Wy Co demos are part of the picture, the developers are using numbers of visitors (Cabela's #1 tourist draw in KS) visibility and location to sell that thing-- which may be having mixed results.

GRID · Post by **GRID** » Wed May 05, 2004 11:14 pm

I just don't see it. Maybe it will be for "Kansas" people coming into town for a weekend much like when out state Missouri people come in for the weekend, many stay in the east suburbs or Downtown but hardly any of those travelers even know there is a Kansas side to KC. Same with JoCo and all the hotels up north. I see the area as one of many nets that capture people as they come into town. It will take over 20 years for KCK to even approach the same amount of hotel rooms the I-70, I-29 and I-35 routes have along them. Sure, many people will drive out to see Cabella's etc, just like many people will seek out Benchmark, Independence Center, Oak Park Mall and soon Zona Rosa etc. But, it's just another suburban shopping area that will compete with downtown, but along with the zillions of other entertainment and shopping options all over town.

But it will not rival the Plaza, Crown Center Downtown corridor as a destination, especially for people visiting from other "metropolitan areas" when most could care less about hunting gear and a big screen tv when visiting KC for the first time.

I know it's a big deal in KS, but most people in Lee's Summit don't even know the T-Bones exist believe it or not.

I'm just saying, it's overrated. Zona Rosa is a much much bigger project than the Legends, it's between the airport and Downtown and is among some of the highest demos in the metro. The smaller centers around Zona Rosa rival the size of the Legends by themselves and there are more hotels in that area than KCK will see in my lifetime. And even though the Legends is only graded dirt, it still gets more attention than the about to open Zona Rosa.

Not to mention the market that the speedway area is going after couldn't be more different than the one Downtown is going after.

Think long term, how will the Legends survive long term after Bass Pro opens in a much more populated area near Independence Center or Olathe copies the Legends and intercepts the JoCo shoppers or another major suburban shopping center goes up in Riverside's new district once again intercepting Northland shoppers? Nobody lives out there (10k within ten miles?) yet and traffic volume on the freeways out there are very low. Well investors and developers do think about all of this and that's why that even with the incredible incentives KCK offers, they still can't line up tenants.

Like I said, it's a nice area and it's blossoming into a nice suburban shopping destination, but lets keep it real and hope they land a Chipoltle and 54th St.

.

trailerkid · Post by **trailerkid** » Wed May 05, 2004 11:29 pm

GRID wrote: I'm just saying, it's overrated. Zona Rosa is a much much bigger project than the Legends, it's between the airport and Downtown and is among some of the highest demos in the metro. The smaller centers around Zona Rosa rival the size of the Legends by themselves and there are more hotels in that area than KCK will see in my lifetime. And even though the Legends is only graded dirt, it still gets more attention than the about to open Zona Rosa.

Legends alone is proposed at over 1,000,000 sq. feet. Cabela's and NFM add another 1,000,000 sq. feet and then add Great Wolf, the pad restaurants and stores and a future large hotel (Hilton or Marriott type size with convention center) and you have something that dwarfs Zona Rosa (about 800,000 sq. feet).

Let me put it this way....
If they were trying to replicate Barrywoods or Oak Park, the thing would be built by now. They are attempting to do something on a grander scale (most expensive projects RED has ever done-- scope, building materials, tenants, etc.). If they succeed will be another question, but needless to say their anchor destinations probably aren't Home Depot and Costco.

GRID · Post by **GRID** » Wed May 05, 2004 11:34 pm

I realize what they want to do, but I just don't see it happening in the way everyone describes. They will ultimately end up with a Kohls, Bad Bath and Beyond and if they are lucky a Best Buy.

There is just too much competition in more sexy areas. But we will see.

If they do pull it off, then good for them, but I will be surprised.

KCKBOY · Post by **KCKBOY** » Thu May 06, 2004 4:58 pm

sigh...i can totally see why kc cant ever get any very huge projects done, everyone in the metro is seperated, instead of thinking as one city we think as serveral different communities, kck, kcmo, juco, nkc, etc... Just imagine if there wasnt all of that anamosity between different communities, hell we'd prolly have light rail, and im not sayin you cant disagree but that whole attitude some of you'll have towards other parts of tha city isnt good for tha city as a whole. I mean, yes Village West is especially good for tha KS side but its good for tha area as a WHOLE also, and yes downtown needs something to draw people down there, and them doing kclive or whatever would help tha WHOLE area not juss downtown. Kansas Citians are juss so hard headed sometimes

if we ever want to reach our full potential, people need to stop thinking so single track minded, kc has enough tourism to support every thing that would be built here, including village west, kclive, a new stadium, or whatever else, im not saying u shouldnt have pride in your own community but if this city is to truely start making BIG MOVES all tha anamosity has to go, and it starts with tha citizens

rxlexi · Post by **rxlexi** » Thu May 06, 2004 5:51 pm

eh...i agree with most of what you're saying, and it seems the OneKC program is making some attempt to address this fractured thinking. However, you're implying that all cities in the metro area (kcmo, OP, KCK, Indep., BS, LS, NKC etc. etc.) are inherently on equal ground and should completely work together for the benefit of the entire area. However, I would tend to feel that kcmo (the city proper) absolutely needs to be acknowledged as the most central, most important, and most necessary 'city' in the metro. Not to mention that many of the smaller cities don't have to deal with a quarter of KCMOs urban troubles while trying to build tourist attractions. The cities in the metro don't stand on equal footing nor should they, IMO. This doesn't mean poaching and fighting, but it does mean acknowledging the presence and importance of a central city.
We need to focus the most effort possible on the central city, the downtown, because this should be one of the most exciting and worthwhile areas in the metro regardless of any suburban exploits...this is how DTs and central cities become healthy and vibrant, IMO. The metro area to some extent acknowledges that the center of everything should be downtown/city...it is (or should be) the pride of the metro area. Claiming that it would be as good for the metro for Legends or anywhere else to have the singular big name tenants is untrue. The city becomes a spread-out, sprawled group of tourist spots with no definitive order or residential backbone. People WILL go out to the fringe areas to see the big spots, but only if they feel the central city can't offer them anything. What does the metro look like if attractions are spread between NKC, KCK, Lees Summit, SoJoCo and the Plaza if the rest of the central city is (to tourists) an uninteresting waste? It would look like a bad joke...
Nothing wrong having the largest, most impressive suburban shopping centers possible...as long as the suburbs have a vibrant, living city to latch onto and draw from.

KCKBOY · Post by **KCKBOY** » Sun May 09, 2004 8:31 pm

i agree the city most definately has to have a vibrant downtown, it does need a center point, BUT what im saying is yes support that but people need to stop making every thing a vs. thing, hell every thing in tha metro is like a compitition against what seems like another place in tha metro for tha same thing, and yes sometimes compitition can be good but all its doin to tha kc metro is splitting it apart. i mean i know that our situation is kinda different than other metros for our size, almost half of tha metro is in a whole different state than the main city is, which can sometimes make it a lil harder to get things done, but im sure if we really tried kc as a whole can get to be a serious destination and great place to live throughout tha metro

GRID · Post by **GRID** » Wed May 12, 2004 12:19 pm

The more and more downtown development that gets announced, the more stupid this comparison seems to me.

Now it seems that comparing Village West to Downtown is flat out laughable.

What next, compare Leawood Town Center to the French Quarter?

I just wanted to put a nail in this coffin.

KCKBOY · Post by **KCKBOY** » Thu May 13, 2004 5:05 pm

it shouldnt be looked at as a comparision in tha first place, dont look at it like kcmo vs. kck or kck vs. juco, or juco vs kcmo, NO MORE COMPARISIONS, its silly, look at tha city as a whole

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