Village West vs. Power & Light District

Come here for discussion about the new downtown entertainment district.
shinatoo
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Re: OFFICIAL: Power & Light District

Post by shinatoo »

The Country Club Plaza was a greenfield development at one time. Of course there wasn't any wide open swaths of land in the core.

I had a point but I lost it. Sorry for the randomness.
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Re: OFFICIAL: Power & Light District

Post by GRID »

shinatoo wrote: The Country Club Plaza was a greenfield development at one time. Of course there wasn't any wide open swaths of land in the core.

I had a point but I lost it. Sorry for the randomness.
Not really the same.  At all...
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Re: OFFICIAL: Power & Light District

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

trailerkid wrote: Cordish needed a retail partner like CBL or RED that actually had dealt with national retail tenants. That was the main problem with the leasing activity.
Doubt that is the problem since it appears that the district is now close to 90% occupied.  However, even with that level the projected income from the district is around $5M with a $15M debt payment.  That is why there is a $10M subsidy for the development.  The financial numbers were just fixed.
I may be right.  I may be wrong.  But there is a lot of gray area in-between.
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Re: OFFICIAL: Power & Light District

Post by Highlander »

If Village West is doing so wonderfully, it begs the question as to why it ever needed subsidies in the first place.  The reason TIF's and other tax incentives came into being in the first place was to promote development where it would not have otherwise occurred without some kind of subsidy.  Their use was originally restricted to "blighted" areas.  The Power and Light District meets all those criteria whereas Village West is greenfield development that could have been (and actually is) in just about every suburb in the US minus the racetrack.

While I don't have a problem with Village West, it brought a little life to KCK, it is what it is; a suburban mall with a few niceties that will neither make nor break Kansas City.  The impact of the Power and Light District is an order of magnitude more critical to the city, the future of the city and in the long run it will probably outlive and outshine Village West.  As the tournament comes to town, you can already see that it has become the face of KC.  To compare it in any way (cost, importance to the city, financial performance, etc...) to Village West is just irrational and is the just game that petty little media minds like to play.   
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Re: OFFICIAL: Power & Light District

Post by brewcrew1000 »

Why is Legends turning into an outlet mall, everything out their is turning into outlets.  Pretty soon this area will be the next Odessa and Great Mall.

You know what would help the P&L greatly is if they moved Dave and Busters there, that would be a huge success every night of the week.
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Re: OFFICIAL: Power & Light District

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

Highlander wrote:   The reason TIF's and other tax incentives came into being in the first place was to promote development where it would not have otherwise occurred without some kind of subsidy.    
That was the idea of tax abatements however not so much with TIF's.  TIF was used with the intention that taxes collected above "past taxes" would be used to "pay for approved project-related costs".  The implication was that the new project would generate enough new taxes to cover its costs, especially if the government entity backs bonds issued for the project with its good faith to make payment if revenues become short.  That takes economic incentives into a new direction than just giving tax abatements.
I may be right.  I may be wrong.  But there is a lot of gray area in-between.
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Re: OFFICIAL: Power & Light District

Post by shinatoo »

GRID wrote: Not really the same.  At all...
How did you manage to disagree with me when I didn't even have a point?
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Re: OFFICIAL: Power & Light District

Post by GRID »

shinatoo wrote: How did you manage to disagree with me when I didn't even have a point?
didn't really disagree, but I did make a point that they are not similar
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Re: OFFICIAL: Power & Light District

Post by Highlander »

aknowledgeableperson wrote: That was the idea of tax abatements however not so much with TIF's.  
Actually, it's pretty much the idea for both.  When Funk came to office, he rather forcefully said the next request for a TIF better be in a blighted area (paraphrased but it is close enough).  There's no point in having an incentive if it is not there to accomplish something that is not going to happen without it.
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Re: OFFICIAL: Power & Light District

Post by FangKC »

The thing we have to remember is what was accomplished by building the P&L District.  Again, we have to factor in the cost of having done nothing.

We also have to take into account how much better P&L might have been doing had we not had a major recession. Had that not happened, we might have three NEW apartment towers completed or going up around P&L--the three Cordish ones, the one at 13th and Baltimore, and the one at 17th and Broadway.  The tenant list probably would have filled up a lot faster. Cordish probably has had a rough go getting anyone to come into the District under current market conditions.

First of all, we got an image makeover. People changed what they were saying about downtown.

We got rid of several blocks of parking lots and blighted buildings. As a result, we got the first skyscraper built downtown in a generation, and the first large company (H&R Block) to move back into the Loop in a long time (probably since Transamerica). At some point, H&R Block might actually build a second tower. Andrews-McNeel Universal moved into the Boley Building, which had sat empty for years.

Prior to it being built, companies and firms were leaving downtown.  We can only guess how many more were thinking of bailing and didn't.

Because of P&L and the hope of the East Village redevelopment, J.E. Dunn built another new building and stayed downtown.  Populous (HOK) would probably not have built a new building either.

We have to consider how many vacant office buildings downtown would not have gotten financing for conversion into apartments without P&L.  Market Station, the largest number of newly-constructed apartments since Quality Hill, would not have been built. The View would have been demolished. The Manhattan would still be a low-rent apartment buildng. The list is long. 909 Walnut would have never gotten financing.

Even in a down real estate market, the vacancy rates of One Kansas City Place and Town Pavilion have been going down.

We got a grocery store downtown to serve residents--and an outdoor swimming pool.

We would have probably lost the only remaining downtown drug store (CVS).

We got a new repertory theater downtown.

A new museum opened downtown (College Basketball Experience).

We got two historic theater buildings restored and repurposed.

We got a new outdoor event space (KC Live).

We got an entertainment district to service the convention district, and Sprint Center visitors.  Our former arena, Kemper, didn't have anything to do around it, and people just went home after shows. We would have continued to hemorrhage conventions.

We would have probably lost the President Hotel, and the Aladdin would be sitting empty. We would also have probably lost several other old office buildings to demolition: Professional Building, 1006 Grand, Gate City Bank, Blackstone Hotel, Chambers Lofts, Baker-Vawter Building, 807 Wyandotte (new Trozzolo space), Lane Printing, and Vista Del Rio.  Not to mention the Empire Theater (Mainstreet).  The financing to redevelop these buildings only came based on the promise of the P&L District, and an increased demand for housing and retail.

While the city has had to put money into P&L, we have to remember that total tax receipts for downtown are up significantly. Sure, the P&L District isn't producing enough revenue to pay the bonds, but other tax revenues overall downtown have gone up enough to make up most of the difference (from sources outside of P&L).  Those revenues probably wouldn't have increased without P&L.

Another point is that before the market crash, people were buying homes in downtown--not just renting. So additional small-time investment was being made in a way that hadn't happened for decades.

Additionally, we have a bunch of new restaurants and nightclubs downtown that didn't exist before. We have places to dance, a bowling alley, and a movie theater. There is something to do downtown.  Performers that used to skip Kansas City are now coming here.

The other major point here is that the City has made a new start. We have something significant to build upon, and expand, once the markets improve.  Like the Plaza, the P&L District will take time to develop, and it should always be expanding and changing.  It took the Plaza about 50 years to become an iconic destination.
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Re: OFFICIAL: Power & Light District

Post by FangKC »

Another big point should be made. Downtown (especially the South Loop) was a very depressing place prior to P&L.  It's not anymore.  P&L spurred other parts of downtown to clean up.  I'm no longer embarrassed to take people downtown, and that's a big thing in changing the long-term perception of the entire city.  Because whether you like it or not, the Loop is the face of Kansas City.
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Re: OFFICIAL: Power & Light District

Post by trailerkid »

If the Big 12 brought in $18 M alone...can anyone explain to me how the P+L is not successful? $0 of that money would be here without P+L.
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Re: OFFICIAL: Power & Light District

Post by MidtownCat »

FangKC wrote: The thing we have to remember is what was accomplished by building the P&L District.  Again, we have to factor in the cost of having done nothing.

We also have to take into account how much better P&L might have been doing had we not had a major recession. Had that not happened, we might have three NEW apartment towers completed or going up around P&L--the three Cordish ones, the one at 13th and Baltimore, and the one at 17th and Broadway.  The tenant list probably would have filled up a lot faster. Cordish probably has had a rough go getting anyone to come into the District under current market conditions.

First of all, we got an image makeover. People changed what they were saying about downtown.

We got rid of several blocks of parking lots and blighted buildings. As a result, we got the first skyscraper built downtown in a generation, and the first large company (H&R Block) to move back into the Loop in a long time (probably since Transamerica). At some point, H&R Block might actually build a second tower. Andrews-McNeel Universal moved into the Boley Building, which had sat empty for years.

Prior to it being built, companies and firms were leaving downtown.  We can only guess how many more were thinking of bailing and didn't.

Because of P&L and the hope of the East Village redevelopment, J.E. Dunn built another new building and stayed downtown.  Populous (HOK) would probably not have built a new building either.

We have to consider how many vacant office buildings downtown would not have gotten financing for conversion into apartments without P&L.  Market Station, the largest number of newly-constructed apartments since Quality Hill, would not have been built. The View would have been demolished. The Manhattan would still be a low-rent apartment buildng. The list is long. 909 Walnut would have never gotten financing.

Even in a down real estate market, the vacancy rates of One Kansas City Place and Town Pavilion have been going down.

We got a grocery store downtown to serve residents--and an outdoor swimming pool.

We would have probably lost the only remaining downtown drug store (CVS).

We got a new repertory theater downtown.

A new museum opened downtown (College Basketball Experience).

We got two historic theater buildings restored and repurposed.

We got a new outdoor event space (KC Live).

We got an entertainment district to service the convention district, and Sprint Center visitors.  Our former arena, Kemper, didn't have anything to do around it, and people just went home after shows. We would have continued to hemorrhage conventions.

We would have probably lost the President Hotel, and the Aladdin would be sitting empty. We would also have probably lost several other old office buildings to demolition: Professional Building, 1006 Grand, Gate City Bank, Blackstone Hotel, Chambers Lofts, Baker-Vawter Building, 807 Wyandotte (new Trozzolo space), Lane Printing, and Vista Del Rio.  Not to mention the Empire Theater (Mainstreet).  The financing to redevelop these buildings only came based on the promise of the P&L District, and an increased demand for housing and retail.

While the city has had to put money into P&L, we have to remember that total tax receipts for downtown are up significantly. Sure, the P&L District isn't producing enough revenue to pay the bonds, but other tax revenues overall downtown have gone up enough to make up most of the difference (from sources outside of P&L).  Those revenues probably wouldn't have increased without P&L.

Another point is that before the market crash, people were buying homes in downtown--not just renting. So additional small-time investment was being made in a way that hadn't happened for decades.

Additionally, we have a bunch of new restaurants and nightclubs downtown that didn't exist before. We have places to dance, a bowling alley, and a movie theater. There is something to do downtown.  Performers that used to skip Kansas City are now coming here.

The other major point here is that the City has made a new start. We have something significant to build upon, and expand, once the markets improve.  Like the Plaza, the P&L District will take time to develop, and it should always be expanding and changing.  It took the Plaza about 50 years to become an iconic destination.




Great post.
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Re: OFFICIAL: Power & Light District

Post by shinatoo »

MidtownCat wrote:
Great post.


Ditto.
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Re: OFFICIAL: Power & Light District

Post by geeman68 »

AWESOME post!  In addition, to that running commentary, do you think the PAC would be where it is today?  How about the Crossroads district?  It has surely been given new life by the revitalization of downtown.  What about the Grand Lofts, the old US courthouse lofts and the recently announced apartment renovation where the old HOK Sport used to be?  How about the new boutique hotel conversion on Grand?  Then there's the new 100,000 sq ft aquarium at Crown Center.  
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Re: OFFICIAL: Power & Light District

Post by missingkc »

That is a great post.  The Star needs to take that story to the people.
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Re: OFFICIAL: Power & Light District

Post by geeman68 »

missingkc wrote: That is a great post.  The Star needs to take that story to the people.
Totally agree!!!  Someone should send that to a Star contact.
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Re: OFFICIAL: Power & Light District

Post by cknab1 »

if only we knew someone that worked at the Star........
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Re: OFFICIAL: Power & Light District

Post by admb4ku »

GRID wrote: Now, both projects have been excellent additions to the metro and both have created mass amounts of investment in their respective areas, but I don't agree with KCK putting all their eggs west of 435 while the rest of the city rots away.  All they did is build themselves a nice little suburb out there.  They should have found a way to do both (create the suburb and invest in central kck).  Cerner should go downtown, the stadiums should go downtown etc.  Use that STAR bond money to fix the city east of 435, 635, 18th Street.  KCK is a freaking joke now.  They don't even have a walmart in the built up part of the city east of 435 now.

So, when I look at both of these projects, one of them stands out as far more impacting and successful than the other.  Regardless of what the city has to dig up for the P&L debt service, it was well worth the money and the short and long term impact of the P&L and downtown is difficult to even measure.  Clear success story of urban revival, rebuild and investment.  Then you have what is truly nothing more than corporate welfare out in western wyco that seems to get all the praise.

I have nothing against Village West as a development.  It's a nice suburban shopping area.  But the state and the city should be ashamed that they didn't do more than just build a state funded shopping center in the middle of nowhere.  They should have been more creative with all that STAR bond money to do more east of 435 and the KC press is riding this like there is no tomorrow because the people of the KC area are just eating it up.
You talk about KCK putting their eggs in the 'West of 435 basket', before this, they had no eggs. They are building plenty in the inner core, or at least were until the market dropped out. They will use a lot of the proceeds from the west to build the core, or at least that is the plan. For instance, the new SunFresh/Prescott Plaza.

You had to put the stadiums where they wanted to go, there was competition so the greenfield was necessary because of the cheaper costs mentioned here, not having to tear up as much infrastructure, etc. as the P&L. Cerner was going to want to be in a 'suburban' area, which is consistent for them and near the stadium they are building. If KCK tried to build a Village West inside 635, then it wouldn't have been built at all.

I think they both work for who they are for. The two aren't really in competition very much. P&L revitalizes downtown, Village West gives KCK something to build from. I see both as winners.
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Re: OFFICIAL: Power & Light District

Post by GRID »

admb4ku wrote: You talk about KCK putting their eggs in the 'West of 435 basket', before this, they had no eggs. They are building plenty in the inner core, or at least were until the market dropped out. They will use a lot of the proceeds from the west to build the core, or at least that is the plan. For instance, the new SunFresh/Prescott Plaza.

You had to put the stadiums where they wanted to go, there was competition so the greenfield was necessary because of the cheaper costs mentioned here, not having to tear up as much infrastructure, etc. as the P&L. Cerner was going to want to be in a 'suburban' area, which is consistent for them and near the stadium they are building. If KCK tried to build a Village West inside 635, then it wouldn't have been built at all.

I think they both work for who they are for. The two aren't really in competition very much. P&L revitalizes downtown, Village West gives KCK something to build from. I see both as winners.
I'm fine with everything KCK has done up to the Cerner and soccer stadium project which I simply think should have been built downtown.  At least the office complex.  With the amount of money that Kansas is handing out, you would think they would have just a bit more say in how it's spent.

I also don't think the city should have tiffed the Plaza at the Speedway.  That project could and should have happened east of 435.  Even along I-70 at 78th Street or something.  A suburban infill redevelopment etc.

The city's move to build the speedway, village west, cabella's, NFM and even the baseball stadium are all great and it was very much needed.

But at some point, the city should have put a bit more effort into the actual city of KCK and subsidizing sprawl far from the city with hundreds of millions of dollars is only going to do so much for the actual city of KCK.  It's barely even spurring suburban residential growth as the area around the speedway is not exactly booming with new rooftops.

Sunfresh is nice. but hardly enough.
Last edited by GRID on Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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