Village West vs. Power & Light District

[admb4ku]

I'm fine with everything KCK has done up to the Cerner and soccer stadium project which I simply think should have been built downtown.  At least the office complex.  With the amount of money that Kansas is handing out, you would think they would have just a bit more say in how it's spent.

I also don't think the city should have tiffed the Plaza at the Speedway.  That project could and should have happened east of 435.  Even along I-70 at 78th Street or something.  A suburban infill redevelopment etc.

The city's move to build the speedway, village west, cabella's, NFM and even the baseball stadium are all great and it was very much needed.

But at some point, the city should have put a bit more effort into the actual city of KCK and subsidizing sprawl far from the city with hundreds of millions of dollars is only going to do so much for the actual city of KCK.  It's barely even spurring suburban residential growth as the area around the speedway is not exactly booming with new rooftops.

Sunfresh is nice. but hardly enough.

The Stadium happened because Nebraska Furniture Mart was willing to donate the land. And I think it was all put together pretty fast. And I assume Cerner wanted to be by their stadium. I wish they would have put it downtown too, but it just didn't work out that way.

I agree about Plaza at the Speedway and more could be done to add in the city, but somebody has to want to build it there. And 78th street isn't exactly inner-core, it's just the previous suburb area.

There are some new rooftops going out there, but nobody is adding rooftops right now.

It will be interesting to see what happens with Indian Springs and the EPA, that will show how strong the commitment is to develop east of 435.

[rokhok]

I love both developments for vastly different reasons.  I see some points of comparison and contrast at using public funds for private development.  There is no denying that for measurable return on investment, VW has been a 100% success.  It is also true that while the project finances for P&L have lacked and were probably built on very optimistic results, the overall impact to the downtown has been immeasurable and will have impact for years to come.  It is a reasonable approach to say that KCK and KCMO had different needs and each took the approach they needed for their city.  These projects/areas/cities need not be made into artificial enemies.  They can both prosper.

What bothers me about this discussion though is the undertone of KS vs MO powering the argument.  There is a lot of hypocritical and frankly, unrealistic opinions being thrown out as "truth":

* Picking at the edges of the VW financing, talking about how much less it cost developers vs P&L is missing the point.  The real point should be (regardless if YOU personally like VW and go there), was it a successful use of public incentives?

* False Choice about developing in DT KCK:  Did I miss somewhere the legitimate developers busting down the KCK City Hall doors for incentives to develop Minnesota Ave?  I know for a FACT that the UG would love to have a plan that would make that happen ASAP.  But one hasn't happened.  Saying they should have forced developers that direction instead of VW isnt real world.  They would have risked not getting ANY development.  Would that have been better for DT KCK?

* This false flag about DT KCK development being important to the folks here who are pro core city dev is interesting to me.  It seems that the only time DT KCK gets discussed is contrasting it against VW.  I don't see many threads being started about real solutions to DT KCK.  Also, why aren't topics about downtown KCK included in the URBAN CORE section instead of the KANSAS SUBURBS section?

[GRID]

The Stadium happened because Nebraska Furniture Mart was willing to donate the land. And I think it was all put together pretty fast. And I assume Cerner wanted to be by their stadium. I wish they would have put it downtown too, but it just didn't work out that way.

I agree about Plaza at the Speedway and more could be done to add in the city, but somebody has to want to build it there. And 78th street isn't exactly inner-core, it's just the previous suburb area.

There are some new rooftops going out there, but nobody is adding rooftops right now.

It will be interesting to see what happens with Indian Springs and the EPA, that will show how strong the commitment is to develop east of 435.

The I-70 corridor (and much of KCK north of I-70 even) is extremely underdeveloped at  78th, 72nd, Turner Diagonal, 64th all plenty west of more challenging areas east of 635.  Even though there is plenty of open land, there is also plenty of developed land that already needs to be redeveloped.

So placing the Plaza at the Speedway (with its walmart, best buy etc) clear out past 435 is just silly.  Not only is KCK west of 635 sparsely developed, once you get past about 83rd it becomes practically rural and the Plaza at the Speedway is several miles west of that.

I see retail projects all over the country and a project exactly like the Plaza at the Speedway could have been done east of 435 and it would have thrived and helped stabilize an actual built up existing part of KCK even if that area is a 1970's suburban area.  This is even more true when incentives are involved.  KCK actually tiffed the Plaza at the Speedway and in the process lost the only big box it had where people actually live.  WTF?

The soccer stadium.  Come on.  That little piece of land was donated by NFM.  Big deal.  First off, how did NFM donate land that was bought by the state or city in first place?  Did KCK give that land to NFM first?  The entire VW area was purchased by the city and basically given to the developer.  So I don't understand how that was really an issue at all.  They just liked the location in the middle of everything.

That soccer stadium would have been sweet at Kaw Point or something, period.  It will be a nice stadium, but it's location is terrible for a stadium built with STAR bond money.

Cerner should also think more about redevelopment.  Why in the world is Kansas handing out so much money to devlelop exurbia?  Do you honestly think people working at Cerner are going to move to homes in western WyCo.  Most will commute from the Northland and JoCo, maybe some from LV or Wyco, but not many.  At least with downtown, you could help revitalize the central city with such an investment.  There is no reason that Downtown KCK could not be a viable urban alternative to Westport, Crossroads, River Market, Plaza etc, except the fact that the city and the corporate community choose to ignore it and develop far flung greenfields instead.

KCK could have their thriving village west area, brand new redeveopent projects like the plaza at the speedway in midtown areas west of 635 and new corporate office towers and a soccer stadium near downtown.  That's how powerfull KS incentives are.  It's just too bad they're being abused and taken advantage of by developers.

All while the P&L District gets all the negative press about abuse of tiff.

KC is really, really messed up.

[loftguy]

* False Choice about developing in DT KCK:  Did I miss somewhere the legitimate developers busting down the KCK City Hall doors for incentives to develop Minnesota Ave?  I know for a FACT that the UG would love to have a plan that would make that happen ASAP.  But one hasn't happened.  Saying they should have forced developers that direction instead of VW isnt real world.  They would have risked not getting ANY development.  Would that have been better for DT KCK?

* This false flag about DT KCK development being important to the folks here who are pro core city dev is interesting to me.  It seems that the only time DT KCK gets discussed is contrasting it against VW.  I don't see many threads being started about real solutions to DT KCK.  Also, why aren't topics about downtown KCK included in the URBAN CORE section instead of the KANSAS SUBURBS section?

Over the past 15 years, there have been several development overtures made to create change in downtown KCK.  They have been cut off at the knees by the "good old boys club" that dismissed "outsiders".  The ony exception was the hotel development and that was because the development team was exceptionally connected on a much larger level.

Unfortunate.  I believe Marinovich wanted the change, but could not expend the capital to make it happen and she focused instead on Wester WyCo, where she could get things done.

[rokhok]

Over the past 15 years, there have been several development overtures made to create change in downtown KCK.  They have been cut off at the knees by the "good old boys club" that dismissed "outsiders".  The ony exception was the hotel development and that was because the development team was exceptionally connected on a much larger level.

Unfortunate.  I believe Marinovich wanted the change, but could not expend the capital to make it happen and she focused instead on Wester WyCo, where she could get things done.

Could you provide details for these several plans along the scale of either P&L or VW that have been cutoff in the timeframe that discussions began for VW?

[loftguy]

Could you provide details for these several plans along the scale of either P&L or VW that have been cutoff in the timeframe that discussions began for VW?

No.

You can review my posts over the past few years.  I'm informed and I'm neither a provacateur nor a bullshitter. (Well, unless being totally facetious)

I won't provide the details, as they are the business of the people who offered the developments.  They were credible entities, with proven track records of changing communities.  Such proposals both predated the VW discussions and overlapped a bit.

They were not on the scale of P & L, or the VW and that qualification by you is curious.
They would have been potential game changers, none the less. 

[rokhok]

No.

You can review my posts over the past few years.  I'm informed and I'm neither a provacateur nor a bullshitter. (Well, unless being totally facetious)

I won't provide the details, as they are the business of the people who offered the developments.  They were credible entities, with proven track records of changing communities.  Such proposals both predated the VW discussions and overlapped a bit.

They were not on the scale of P & L, or the VW and that qualification by you is curious.
They would have been potential game changers, none the less. 

I am not doubting what you say is true.  It doesn't sound like you and I have a beef.  The reason I put that qualifier in place is that there are many here that somehow have inferred that the UG had a choice between doing a development on that scale out west (which they did) and one DT.  I am just saying that is not how it went down.  They did not have anyone approach them in the VW timeframe (can't comment before that but I agree that pre UG no one had any clue) approach them about a viable, similar sized project for DT that they turned down.  It was never an either/or scenario.  I think that if a developer had a viable way to become a catalyst in downtown KCK the UG would be all over it.  It was nice getting the government building development down there and I LOVE the infill development at 18th and I-70 and the small number of houses on the hill and on the bluff.  I grew up in wyco and went to school downtown at Sumner.  I would LOVE to see downtown vibrant.  But retail is afraid of the demographics, commericial/office is afraid their workers won't want to go down there, and not enough people are interesting in moving down there because the first two are not there.  It is a cycle.

With all that said, I don't understand the hatred of VW based on the fact that it wasn't directly helping DT when at least it was something positive the UG could do to turn off the bleeding of residents out west.  It took 50 years for KCK to get in that shape and it will take WAY more than one retail district out west to fix, but at least it helped, right?

[Highlander]

rosper.

What bothers me about this discussion though is the undertone of KS vs MO powering the argument.  There is a lot of hypocritical and frankly, unrealistic opinions being thrown out as "truth":

* Picking at the edges of the VW financing, talking about how much less it cost developers vs P&L is missing the point.  The real point should be (regardless if YOU personally like VW and go there), was it a successful use of public incentives?

I think this is a legitimate beef with or without the KS - MO rivalry.  I'd rather see my tax money being spent on rejuvinating a downtown area that is the face of the city rather than building just another suburban development that easily could have stood on it's own two feet without subsidsies.  I've got no problem enticing a company like Cordish to take a pretty huge risk on an area of the city that had become pretty much overlooked relative to a build-it-and-they-will-come suburban development that, honestly, without the sporting events, is just another mall.  Lot's of malls are built without subsidies, one can make a pretty good case that this should have been one of them.  The results don't point to a good use of public money, they suggest that public money was never really needed. 

[aknowledgeableperson]

Yeah, you know, I didn't really buy the P&L numbers as realistic when they were originally being pushed. Because they weren't. I'm torn between whether it was better to knowingly push BS numbers in order to get something done that obviously needed to be done, or whether it would have been better to tell the truth and scale it back a little.

Interesting take that you seem to think that it is OK for government leaders to lie to the citizens.  What happened to transparency and people being truthful?  When are we suppose to know when it is truth they speak or when they lie?

[KCPowercat]

Rok....kck bought up that land that is how village west before they had a developer. They shopped it around.

You wonder why this site doesn't worship a development like village west?  Stuff like that is the complete opposite of what the majority of this site wants to see developed. Has nothing to do with the city county state involved.

[redperro]

A more apt pair of comparisons might be

Village West : Zona Rosa

Power & Light : 8th & State Ave

best mickey d's in town, at state and 8th, beatiful parking lot 

no, but no, aside from the remants of the 1940's/50's minnesota/state avenue is a dragggggggg, and bonito michoacan thats about it on state/minnesota

[aknowledgeableperson]

If memory serves me well the racetrack was announced well before VW.  And much of that land was accumulated for the track.  True, KCK could have had zero development around the track like an Iowa track off of I-80 in the middle of a cornfield or like a track by Granite City, IL but then people would complain about it like they do about TSC.

The racetrack and the development around it was KCK and the state of KS's chance to make something out of nothing and they did it.  Much of the newly-built infrastructure was needed for the track so to add what little else was needed for additional development shouldn't have been that much extra.

[KCPowercat]

You are right, they accumulated all the land at once, more than they needed for the racetrack....taking a chance they could get a developer. 


This isn't a vs. debate...hell it's about as relevant as comparing Village West to highway expansion projects.

[pash]

.

[GRID]

Village West doesn't really even compare to Zona Rosa.

Zona Rosa was privately built with no incentives.  They did ask for a very small incentive to help fund the parking garage in the second phase, but that's it.

It's also not in a rural area, but a pretty built up suburban area and only  a couple of miles from KCI.

Nothing like Village West exists in KCMO.

The only way to compare Village West to something in KCMO is to create a possible scenario that could compare.

So here goes:

KCMO would have needed to buy up hundreds of acres of land (much by eminent domain) at a very far flung location far from even the edge of today's sprawl in the city.

I'm thinking 435 and 169 in the far northland.  North side of 435 too, because northland growth is approaching 435 in that area.

Then the city of KCMO gives that land to the developers and Village "North" is born.

The state of Missouri allows super aggresive incentives that it only allows for urban redevelopments like MODESA, which is the only thing comparable to Kansas Star Bonds.  This would generate enough cash to actually fund the shopping center's construction, which was not even the case with the P&L district as most of the incentives went to get the land ready for development and build infrastructure.  

Even in an urban development project, the actual P&L project (except garages) was funded by Cordish, not the city or state.  But Village North would basically be built from the ground up with tax money.  Even much of contents of the buildings is subsidized, the theaters and cabellas for example actually had state funded interior components.

Then MoDot would throw in another 20-30 million in road improvements out of thin air despite much higher needs in the city.

Now do this while at the same time doing almost nothing with downtown KCMO.

Now that would be similar to Village West and KCK.



Having said that, I will say again that the initial Village West project and how it came about is fine. The Speedway and Legends Shopping Center is well worth the investment IMO.

I think it was a great project for KCK.  But at some point the city should have redirected that effort and all that corporate welfare to urban redevelopment or at the very least infill development.  Plaza at the Speedway, Cerner, the soccer stadium, even the casino and whatever else comes down the pipe could have gone in more strategic locations.

Why is this area even associated with KCK and how does this area change KCK in any way other than it having a KCK address?  The Northland is the Northland.  It's a suburb of KCMO basicaly.  When people think the northland, they don't think KCMO really and vise versa.  But for some reason, Village West has created this new fantacy image of KCK when it should be nicknamed Bonner Springs or something.

It would be like the hypothetical Village North project becoming the new face of KCMO.  KCMO is fine now because of Village North!  It just doesn't make sense to me and the only reason I care is because Village West is constantly being labeled as a huge success story and typically in direct contrast to the failing waste of money called the P&L District.

With the amount of public subsidy that went into that greenfield development, I find it mind boggling that there is even a possibility that it could fail.  But there was and there still is.  

Even with all that public money, it took forever for it to get off the ground and suburban developments like that typically don't last more than 15 years before they begin to decline and in an area with so few rooftops it will be even more difficult to maintain Village West as metropolitan destination.

So, all I ask for is that KC should give the city a lot more respect for the far more difficult and far more impacting P&L district and lay off the praise of the Village West development, especially the more recent projects out there.

But I don't see that happening.  KCK will continue to do everything right while KCMO just screws up everything it touches.  It's always been that way with JoCo and it's looking like WyCo is getting the same treatment.

[aknowledgeableperson]

The only way to compare Village West to something in KCMO is to create a possible scenario that could compare.

So here goes:

KCMO would have needed to buy up hundreds of acres of land (much by eminent domain) at a very far flung location far from even the edge of today's sprawl in the city.

I'm thinking 435 and 169 in the far northland.  North side of 435 too, because northland growth is approaching 435 in that area.

Which is something KCMO would have done if the racetrack would have been located there instead of out west.
Without the racetrack there would not have been a Village West, at least not for quite a few more years.