How can downtown appeal to more families?

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KCPowercat
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Re: How can downtown appeal to more families?

Post by KCPowercat »

Sorry but downtown doesn't need families honestly. I would love if they felt comfortable in staying but I don't think its the demographic that need to be targeted. They re the minority and mostly sit hole every night with less disposable income.
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Re: How can downtown appeal to more families?

Post by chingon »

More people live in Queens than Manhattan, and there is a reason why: single-family homes and rowhouses are SUPERIOR for child rearing ( I would argue they are superior period, but that's actually legitimately subjective). They have always have been, in every culture in every time, the preferred housing stock for families and they always will be. Traditional urban families lived in places like the East Village and European central cities not because they were "authentic" or hip, but because the convenience (read: proximity to jobs) of the neighborhoods outweighed the significant, undeniable inconveniece of child-rearing in apartments. It was an economic necessity in most cases, not a lifestyle choice.

As Grid noted, the bald fact is that downtown KC is not as functionally urban as most of Midtown, Brookside and Waldo, and even if it becomes more walkable and more fun, it is unlikely to attract families as a significant portion of the population because the amenities you get for your money in a loft or apartment can't compete with a yard, especially when the house/yard combo is cheaper.

Don't buy it? Try to find a child in San Fransisco.
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Re: How can downtown appeal to more families?

Post by LenexatoKCMO »

chingon wrote: Don't buy it? Try to find a child in San Fransisco.
:^o  I spent part of my childhood living in SF - there are hundreds of thousands of kids.  More supportive of your point - SF is filled with miles of rowhouses, duplexes/triplexes, and even urban-style single family houses.  None of those housing forms need be inconsistent with a dense, walkable, urban landscape.  Fortunately, a huge swath around urban KC is largely a blank slate and there is plenty of room to build more of all of these forms if demand is there.  I would go so far as to say that constructing this sort of dense, family friendly housing is absolutely vital to DTKC health - as mentioned we are already seeing the plateau of what you are going to get in terms of upper income single folks. 
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Re: How can downtown appeal to more families?

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How many DINKS and singles are you going to lose when their building is full of families (that don't spend a dime going out to eat, bars, theatres, etc).  downtown doesn't have to be everything for everybody.
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Re: How can downtown appeal to more families?

Post by LenexatoKCMO »

KCPowercat wrote: How many DINKS and singles are you going to lose when their building is full of families (that don't spend a dime going out to eat, bars, theatres, etc).  downtown doesn't have to be everything for everybody.
Ill take a family with a baby over a trust fund kid with a yappy dog who likes to turn their loft into a disco three nights a week.  We had some of both in our last building and I can tell you who was the bigger annoyance. 
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Re: How can downtown appeal to more families?

Post by KCPowercat »

lol good point....still though the future of downtown growth doesn't require rugrats.
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Re: How can downtown appeal to more families?

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Just to source my information on % of homes without kids....this is the 2002 survey.  Kinda stale data but I'll just go out on a limb that if anything this number has gone down:

Total housing units - 697.4
Number with 0 kids under 18 - 454.9 (65.2%)

http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/h170-02-27.pdf

Not to say downtown shouldn't be kid/family friendly and work towards that goal (families may and probably will increase again), it's not the primary factor for success or failure of downtown living.
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Re: How can downtown appeal to more families?

Post by chingon »

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/24/natio ... dless.html

San Francisco, where the median house price is now about $700,000, had the lowest percentage of people under 18 of any large city in the nation, 14.5 percent, compared with 25.7 percent nationwide, the 2000 census reported. Seattle, where there are more dogs than children, was a close second. Boston, Honolulu, Portland, Miami, Denver, Minneapolis, Austin and Atlanta, all considered, healthy, vibrant urban areas, were not far behind
That's not hundred of thousands. It more like 100 thousand, and I'd bet if you drew a map, most of those live as far from the nexus of downtown as you can get on the peninsula. Not that your larger point is not valid. I'd love to see more dense single-family (3 BR) infill in the urban core, I just don't know what a family would get out of living downtown that isn't already available in an established urban core neighborhood at half the price of a City Homes unit.

My point wasn't that SF-style housing wouldn't be great in KC, but rather that if SF/Manhattan/Seattle/Portland aren't cool enough to lure families, then I don't know what KC could possibly do that wouldn't just be cannabalizing the demographic that's already willing to negotiate the school/societal problems and live in Midtown/BKS/Waldo.
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Re: How can downtown appeal to more families?

Post by KCMax »

LenexatoKCMO wrote: :^o  I spent part of my childhood living in SF - there are hundreds of thousands of kids.  More supportive of your point - SF is filled with miles of rowhouses, duplexes/triplexes, and even urban-style single family houses.  None of those housing forms need be inconsistent with a dense, walkable, urban landscape.  Fortunately, a huge swath around urban KC is largely a blank slate and there is plenty of room to build more of all of these forms if demand is there.  I would go so far as to say that constructing this sort of dense, family friendly housing is absolutely vital to DTKC health - as mentioned we are already seeing the plateau of what you are going to get in terms of upper income single folks. 
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Re: How can downtown appeal to more families?

Post by KCMax »

LenexatoKCMO wrote: Ill take a family with a baby over a trust fund kid with a yappy dog who likes to turn their loft into a disco three nights a week.  We had some of both in our last building and I can tell you who was the bigger annoyance. 
And downtown is large enough that families don't have to live right next to the DINKS and yuppies. You can have people living in lofts in the River Market AND still have rowhouses populating Columbus Park.

Young singles and families co-exist in OP just fine. It can happen in KC too - I'd just like to see it much, much denser of course.
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Re: How can downtown appeal to more families?

Post by AJoD »

Some pretty sweet houses in there.  It's too bad there can't be more cohesive, attractive neighborhoods across the core.  I really think that's one thing that keeps families out that hasn't been mentioned.  There are a lot of nice homes, and even multi-block pockets.  But the relatively poor quality of Main and Troost between 27th and 39th (and Armour and 31st between Main and Troost) create an environment to which I can guarantee you my wife wouldn't want to move with our kids.  It's just too uneven.

It's a chicken/egg situation, unfortunately, because there isn't much incentive to fill up those vacant storefronts or lots when there isn't population around to use them.
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Re: How can downtown appeal to more families?

Post by LenexatoKCMO »

When we moved out of our last place there were probably four or five families with young children there at least part time - None of the kids ever bothered me.  It was actually kind of nice to see them coming and going - made the neighborhood feel more like a "real" city.  There is something a little surreal about living in a neighborhood completely devoid of families. 
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Re: How can downtown appeal to more families?

Post by mlind »

LenexatoKCMO wrote: :^o  I spent part of my childhood living in SF - there are hundreds of thousands of kids.  More supportive of your point - SF is filled with miles of rowhouses, duplexes/triplexes, and even urban-style single family houses.  None of those housing forms need be inconsistent with a dense, walkable, urban landscape.  Fortunately, a huge swath around urban KC is largely a blank slate and there is plenty of room to build more of all of these forms if demand is there.  I would go so far as to say that constructing this sort of dense, family friendly housing is absolutely vital to DTKC health - as mentioned we are already seeing the plateau of what you are going to get in terms of upper income single folks. 
Of course, families are being priced out of San Francisco.  When they want to quit renting and buy a house, the suburbs or even other cities like Oakland and Berkeley, are cheaper. 

Lots of people raise families in NYC and never own.  But there is not enough history of that in KC to make that a desirable option.  The American dream is still a house with a yard, good schools, and a family-friendly environment (neighbors with kids). 
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Re: How can downtown appeal to more families?

Post by NorthlandGuy »

I read through most of this new discussion.
I would agree that bad public schools or the preception of bad schools continues to hinder the urban core including downtown.
If my 'future' kids can have a good free education while paying the same property taxes as someone in Jackson county, why won't I opt for that?

I wish I could walk to work everyday, grab a coffee on the street, each lunch at a Italian cafe, grab a loaf bread on the walk home....but I can't do that in the suburbs...and I can't do that downtown.

Downtown needs more density. I like hearing about building Row Homes, single family homes. More grocery stores, more drugstores, more barber shops, more TRANSIT...!!
I wish entire blocks of the Crossroads would be more similar to Union Hill or Quality Hill. Tree lined streets, lots of three story homes, alleys. etc mixed with commerical similiar to Brookside or Brooklyn.

One other thing I would like to point out, is the preception of crime. Crime statistics are higher for murder, rape, theft, etc. in the urban core than anywhere else in KC. Maybe not downtown...but many people don't realize where the violent crime ends...when does the street or neighborhood become safe. Would I fell comfortable with my wife running downtown at night? No way. But in my little subdivision up north yes.
If downtown were more dense, crime would go down.

I too love downtown.
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Re: How can downtown appeal to more families?

Post by KCPowercat »

You could have done all those things but cupinis just closed. :)
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