Dec. 22 Press Conference

[TheNorthlander]

Show that to be the case.  Their tax proposal was just for a DT stadium if memory is correct.

http://www.downtownkc.org/FileUploads/d ... seball.pdf

Page 43

[LenexatoKCMO]

I have said in the past that I have voted for tax increases and have voted against tax increases.
Now, on this issue it is very likely I will vote for it.
Why?  Because it may not be a great deal to the Jackson County taxpayer but it is a good deal.  Given the reality of the situation it is better than building a new baseball stadium downtown and a new football stadium somewhere (probably at TSC).  And it will certainly be at quite a bit lower cost than new stadiums.

Now the challenge to DTC.  Come up with a better deal (and not just some numbers put together - something concrete) for the taxpayer to take care of both teams at the same cost to the taxpayer.  The taxpayer being either the KCMO resident or a JaCo resident.

Just what I thought . . .

Spend month after month after month harping about the fiscal responsibility of every tax financed or abated project that has ever come online downtown . .  But low and behold when this massive tax increase boondoggle to support your own pet suburban interest comes up it somehow meets your fiscal responsibility threshold?  AKP's fiscal responsibility credibility now = 0.  The next time the city aproves a couple mil or so in tax abatement for some downtown condo tower I don't want to hear one damn word about fiscal responsibility coming from your soapbox. 

[aknowledgeableperson]

^^^
You call it a boondoogle, well, to me, a DT stadium is a far bigger one.

[Maitre D]

Because it may not be a great deal to the Jackson County taxpayer but it is a good deal.  Given the reality of the situation it is better than building a new baseball stadium downtown and a new football stadium somewhere (probably at TSC).  And it will certainly be at quite a bit lower cost than new stadiums.

An even cheaper option would be to give Glass-hole nothing.

[aknowledgeableperson]

Just what I thought . . .

Spend month after month after month harping about the fiscal responsibility of every tax financed or abated project that has ever come online downtown . .   But low and behold when this massive tax increase boondoggle to support your own pet suburban interest comes up it somehow meets your fiscal responsibility threshold?  AKP's fiscal responsibility credibility now = 0.  The next time the city aproves a couple mil or so in tax abatement for some downtown condo tower I don't want to hear one damn word about fiscal responsibility coming from your soapbox. 

#1 There is a difference between Jackson County and KCMO, just in case you didn't know.
#2 Many TIFs have been a money loser for the budget of KCMO.  In other words their revenues are not sufficient to cover the debt service on the bonds used for the project.  And to put it another way, more moeny is going out than coming in.
There are other points to be made but it is clear that you and I are not in agreement.  So be it.

[aknowledgeableperson]

OK.  Arrowhead was included in the DTC proposal.  That is a concept.  Is that something that the Chiefs would have signed off on if the Royals got a new stadium out of the deal and they were stuck with a 35 year old building?

[skim82]

I think the way we go about this is very important.

The fact is, this thing will go down in flames in April. So, we must concentrate not on the "billion" dollars, but the fact that the TSC is a bad location, and the renovations of two (30) year old stadiums is not a good return on investment. 

Also, I heard Jon Copaken say that over 25% of tax revenues comes from the CBD.  That's a very compelling argument for someone who is against a dt baseball stadium. 

Also, the fact is, with a new DT baseball stadium and a renovated Arrowhead, the figures will be close to a billion dollars anyway.  So, what I guess I'm saying is that it's kind of a double-edged sword. 

[KCPowercat]

OK. Arrowhead was included in the DTC proposal. That is a concept. Is that something that the Chiefs would have signed off on if the Royals got a new stadium out of the deal and they were stuck with a 35 year old building?

chiefs have stated over and over they don't want a new facility...they like how Arrowhead is setup.

Of course that's exactly what the Royals have said to....but I think it's our leader's jobs to not just do what these teams want but also what the taxpayers want.  Not even listening to a proposal is not good leadership.

[kcdcchef]

There's nothing funny about it, really. We had a chance to do something which I believe would have been good for 1) me, 2) the city, and 3) the Royals, in that order. Sadly, the county blew it. What I think is funny as hell is that you think I should vote for something I don't want. Why would I do that?

and why would others, who there are more of, vote for something they do not want?

The fact is, this thing will go down in flames in April. So, we must concentrate not on the "billion" dollars, but the fact that the TSC is a bad location, and the renovations of two (30) year old stadiums is not a good return on investment.

yet again, i ask you, the way i ask everyone else on the board, show me an example of one, or two, thirty year old stadiums, that are considered this nice, by everyone in sports, everyone beyond this board i guess, getting torn down. all i want is one. you never hear la talking about 86'ing dodger stadium. it took 80+ years for the white sox and the tigers to get new digs, so, again, show me an example ANYWHERE in american history, of any stadium, considered as nice as kauffman is, to analysts, writers, and athletes, that gets torn down.

do not waste your time. you will find nothing.

as for it going down in flames, i cannot wait to log into the forum, in early april, and see all of you guys bellyaching about how this thing passed. every sample the star, wdaf fox 4, 980, and 810 has taken, has shown that the majority of jacko people will vote yes for this.

jackson county residents have a LONG history of voting yes for things they believe in. they also tend to vote yes for anything to keep their county on the up and up..........zoo improvements, bartle twice, muehlbach, bi state I, bi state II, p&L, sprint center, the first p&l, the kemper improvements, jackson county residents have a long history of saying yes to these things. and when all these older jackson countians tune in to 980, and other radio outlets, they will hear TRUSTED voices telling them that it is the right thing to do. and it will pass.

[49r]

^^^^^

Nowhere, in the history of the world, has anyone ever written more words that have had less impact on a single (reasonably inconsequential) topic.



Nobody questions your passion kcdcchef, but honestly, do you think that your gargantuan effort here has done one thing to even slightly affect anyone's opinion on this board?  And if it has, how many people's minds do you think you've changed?  Methinks a person with your passion should find a more appropriate (and effective) avenue for spreading your message....just a little food for thought.




(that was a pretty bad pun, wasn't it?)

[kcdcchef]

Nowhere, in the history of the world, has anyone ever written more words that have had less impact on a single (reasonably inconsequential) topic.

Nobody questions your passion kcdcchef, but honestly, do you think that your gargantuan effort here has done one thing to even slightly affect anyone's opinion on this board?  And if it has, how many people's minds do you think you've changed?  Methinks a person with your passion should find a more appropriate (and effective) avenue for spreading your message....just a little food for thought.

(that was a pretty bad pun, wasn't it?)

have i won anyone over? perhaps a few swing votes, no more, no less. and noone on the other side has swung anyone.

my point? we all should be working for the good of kc, and when something such as this, which, will get the majority, what good does it do to vote no? none.

i liked your pun.
and i use just as much passion, when discussing downtown issues such as the twa building, the delapitated blue ridge mall, and many, MANY, other kc issues.

[KCPowercat]

kingdome was nice and they tore it down in 24 years. 

(now watch kcdc come in and argue that it wasn't nice....like "nice" is some sort of term of measurement.)

God forbid this forum challenge the leadership that is being led by Lamar and Glass.  Isn't it about time they stood up and listened to all proposals...including that they might not have as their pet projects?

[kcdcchef]

kingdome was nice and they tore it down in 24 years. 

(now watch kcdc come in and argue that it wasn't nice....like "nice" is some sort of term of measurement.)

and here i am. kingdome was a typical piece of shit dome. the measure for "nice" is commentators ALWAYS remarking on its beauty. they do that for kauffman, i have heard it watching 12 different teams announcers say it. and espn. and ballparks.com. and si.

who the fuck liked the big blue mistake of the pac nw?

[KCPowercat]

Well if we are going to base our tax decisions off of announcers, then we are in real trouble. 

I remember hearing how the Kingdome was very loud....not if it was nice or not...so I assume for the team it was nice to have that home field advantage.

Point being, we can't make these decisions based on opinions.  You think it's better to renovate, I don't.  At this point I'm still undecided on the April vote.  So closer to that time I'll let you know how somebody who actually lives and experiences the teams will vote on the tax.  Thanks for your concern though.

[shaffe]

kcdc, do me a favor and pick up the latest issue of espn the magazine.  they do their annual franchise ratings in that issue.  flip over to the 74th rated franchise in all of sports and tell me how their stadium stacks up out of 91?  (hint:  it's not in the top 10).

and, if you really want to, count how many baseball teams have better stadium experiences than kansas city.  (another hint:  it's still not in the top 10).

don't get me wrong, i personally enjoy taking in royals games at kauffman.  but it's not as if we're proposing the baseball equivalent of tearing down the great wall of china and replacing it with a picket fence.

[kcdcchef]

kcdc, do me a favor and pick up the latest issue of espn the magazine.  they do their annual franchise ratings in that issue.  flip over to the 74th rated franchise in all of sports and tell me how their stadium stacks up out of 91?  (hint:  it's not in the top 10).

and, if you really want to, count how many baseball teams have better stadium experiences than kansas city.  (another hint:  it's still not in the top 10).

all i know, is in their online rankings they did, they put the k in the top 12, which means, it beat out 16 newer stadiums, because ahead of it in that top 12, were oldies like wrigley, yankee, and dodger. the value of their franchise, has little if anything to do with the value of their park., so, to have finished in the top 12 the two times i read up on it, in 03, and 04, is good. the only new park opened since then was gab in cincy. one of the parks they did finish ahead of was riverfront in cincy, which, was a no brainer.

but they also finished ahead of coamerica, pnc, ballpark at arlington, rogers centre, pac bell, safeco, enron/minutemaid, us cellular, and others. those i just mentioned, are 8 that are ALL NEWER. and this magazine continually calls kauffman in the top 1/3rd. they may or may not any longer be in the top 10, but from what i keep on reading, top 12 is good, because the only parks older than kauffman, are fenway, yankee, and dodger. pretty impressive to beat out 10-18 newer parks. period.

  So closer to that time I'll let you know how somebody who actually lives and experiences the teams will vote on the tax. Thanks for your concern though.

if i wished to vote on the issue, me and my current mo liscence, with my parents address, would come on out and register. not like i would not be in town for the april vote anyways!!

[moderne]

I have never voted no for any of these issues.  HOWEVER, both teams say no to any surcharge for out of county residents, I am tired of bending over for JoCo and the other suburban counties and will cast a NO vote>  I refuse to subsidize JoCo.

[LenexatoKCMO]

#1 There is a difference between Jackson County and KCMO, just in case you didn't know.

Relevant to my point how?  Are you suggesting that the City and County should be held to different standards of fiscal responisibility?

#2 Many TIFs have been a money loser for the budget of KCMO. In other words their revenues are not sufficient to cover the debt service on the bonds used for the project. And to put it another way, more moeny is going out than coming in.

hmm sounds about as fiscally conservative as a billion dollar tax increase to me. 

There are other points to be made but it is clear that you and I are not in agreement. So be it.

Your right we are not in agreement.  I think it is rediculously hypocritical to sit around and bash every downtown development project on the grounds of fiscal responsibilty but when someone wants to go out and spend a billion dollars of tax money on a project you happen to like, in your own backyard, all of a sudden fiscal responsibility is irrelevant?  A couple of hundred mil through a hotel tax for a downtown arena was irresponsible but a billion dollar sales tax increase for your suburban ballpark is responsible?  bullshit.  We now have confirmation of what most of us suspected - all of your bitching and complaining about downtown developments through the thinly veiled guise of "fiscal responsibilty" can now be viewed for what they really are. 

[Maitre D]

as for it going down in flames, i cannot wait to log into the forum, in early april, and see all of you guys bellyaching about how this thing passed. every sample the star, wdaf fox 4, 980, and 810 has taken, has shown that the majority of jacko people will vote yes for this.

jackson county residents have a LONG history of voting yes for things they believe in.

Oh, I think you're 100% correct here.  Jackos are silly people who have never met a tax they didn't vote for.  (I guess light rail wasn't voted in)  Too many uneducated morons in the county who always assume, "Taxes mean that the rich will pay!"  when the fact is, sales taxes are the most regressive of all.

In a way, the shoddy school system ends up rewarding politicians long term, b/c they can ask for whatever they want and the masses will just hand it to them, blindly.

[chingon]

i shudder to think that you may be right.  keeping poor and working class people in line is easier when they can't think critically, its even easier if they can't read.  rich people and yuppies then have the nerve to suggest that you "can't just throw money" at the education problem in major cities.  of course, they have no problem throwing money at the private schools their children attend, from the preschool level all the way through college.  what they really mean is its not fair for ME to have to pay more so poor people can learn to read.  of course, in the end, all statistics point to the fact that public investment in functional minimum education saves everyone money in the end, in the forms of less welfare, fewer jails,  bigger tax base, etc.  unfortunately, the big businesses of this country have realized that an educated working class is a threat to their profit margins, and they have subsequently mounted a huge anti-public education propaganda machine.  their successful relationship with 3rd world labor forces has whet their appetites, and the obvious goal is to return this country to pre-1930's capitalism, when they didn't have to put up with pesky unions, and their constant whining for things like weekends, or overtime, or healthcare.
what does this have to do with pro sports? everything.  pro athletics has big come one of the biggest corporate entities economically and culturally in this country, and they have learned the tricks of the trade from firms like boeing and other corporate giants.  the city becomes the consumer in this economic framework and major corporate welfare is traded like the hottest commodity available.  the people who lose and lose big are the people in places like kansas city, who are cowed and frightened by the fears of cultural inferiority into supporting this shameful leeching all the while being stripped of public support for the institutions they NEED (like schools, or public transportation, or basic city services) because a limitted tax base is diverted to ensure that the wealthiest institutions in the city don't have to reinvest in it.
i like a ball game as much as the next guy, but as some one who works for a living i'd rather see my hard earned money subsidize major league education than the entertainment industry.  unfortunately, i fear i am in the minority on this one.

ps-akp, don't bait me.  i read these forums to keep up on issues affecting this city, not to discuss my verbiage.