KCRag Forum

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/11739309.htm

There is an article describing a proposed entertainment district consisting of shops, hotel, sports academy with playing fields and some housing. At this time it is not generating much interest from perspective tenents due to the situation with the Chiefs possibly leaving. I actually like what is being proposed and I think it would be a great way of ensuring we keep both the Royals and the Chiefs. However with this plan it would eliminate the posibility of a new Downtown Ball Park.

This is exactly what I have been picturing that they need to do with TSC for a couple of years.  Ufortunately I think they are about 4 years too late with their plan.  How would this development compete with the other dozen or more outdoor destination shopping/entertainment locations that will have been developed by the time this is done?  KC is a big city but just how many of these entertainment/shopping developments can we support?  I am already rpedicting that at least one or two of the ones that are being built/planned now will be busts; I somehow can't picture one in this location turning out as one of the successes.  Sure it would do well on game days but are folks in the Lees Summit, the Northland or JoCo going to dirve to TSC to go to Dicks rather than ZR, Town Center, or the Lees Summit development?  And I don't imagine the surrounding residential areas supporting high end retail on their own.  I just don't see success for this project in the current market.   

I think the plan could work if they cater to a market not being catered to currently that being sports. Yes there is the race track but the surrounding developments are not sports oriented. Mabey they could put the Nascar Museum here to be the big draw. Also having the sports academy there could be benifit, while the kids are practicing the soccor moms could patronize the shops there. I think for this to succed it would have to be genuinly unique to what already exist which are all similar in design and content. But done correctly this could turn out to be a very viable project.

Thats just it, there aren't many "soccer moms" living anywere near TSC.  Were are these kids going to come from that are going to play at the athletic facility? 

By the time this could be done, all of the other destination retail/entertainment districts will have snatched up every draw retailer and used up every gimmick they can to distinquish themselves.  TSC would be picking up the scraps.  A day late and a dollar short if you ask me. 

It would be nice to have a bar and restaurant or two to go to on a friday night after a baseball game but who is going to be supporting a bar or restaurant in that parking lot on a Tuesday night in February?  No one, it would be a graveyard. 

They would be a million times better off putting the ballpark near one of the entertainment/retail districts that already has traction (i.e power & light or even CC) rather than dumping a district in a dead parking lot. 

It's gonna be really challenging to make this successful. Like the article says, there is already a lot of competition in KC for destination retail... Village West, Power and Light, Lee's Summit ballpark, Joco arena, Zona Rosa, etc.  And this could be the last one to the party. 

Bass Pro was the best chance for making this work.  This plan is what should have been 30 years ago when the stadiums were built.  Or 10 years ago when the leases were last renewed.

I really like this idea because I love the K, and dont' want to see it left empty simply because some feel it is needed for downtown development (it is not), but dangerboy is right, it is going to be very challenging to make this successful.

Still, there is a huge market that we are just beginning to tap out there. If we can bring everyone out of the burbs, there should be enough people for Village West, Power and Light, Crossroads, Westport, the Plaza AND TSC. Plus, many people (like me) will visit all of them.

This idea is ridiculus... are you even kidding me??   reading this article made me laugh out loud... I think I laughed louder than when Hunt tried to say we would get the SuperBowl if Bi-State II passed.  

This is the most idotic idea that they could come up with.  $100M for a glass canopy??  Put that money into a new stadium downtown for baseball, where there already are SHOPS, CONDOS, APTS, RESURANTS, HOTELS, BARS, OFFICE, A NEW ARENA, ETC.. (existing and UNDER CONSTRUCTION).  Why suck more out of the heart of the city??????

What a Joke, I feel bad for Collison and the other guy who had to spend time covering this horrible idea.  

Just what I want... another district or area that I have to DRIVE TO!!!!    #-o  

man.. my spelling sucks... when I type angry...

Yeah Kropf, it's pretty dopey. Yet another example of trying to spread out the city's attractions according to a 1970's planning mentality that makes certain everything must be driven to.

KCMax wrote:
Still, there is a huge market that we are just beginning to tap out there. If we can bring everyone out of the burbs, there should be enough people for Village West, Power and Light, Crossroads, Westport, the Plaza AND TSC. Plus, many people (like me) will visit all of them.

You left out , Zona Rosa, Corbin, Town Center, Lenexa City Center, Briarcliff, the Merriam project, etc, etc, etc.   By the time this could get done, the market for destination retail/entertainment will be so played out in this city it won't be funny.  At least a couple of these will have bust by then. 

KCMax wrote: I really like this idea because I love the K, and dont' want to see it left empty simply because some feel it is needed for downtown development (it is not), but dangerboy is right, it is going to be very challenging to make this successful.

Its not an issue of needing the ballpark for downtown development.  Downtown has plenty of steam on its own.  Its about making the baseball club competitive destination wise.  Right now one of the number one problems for the Royals is that there is absolutely nothing to do around the ball park before or after the game.  We can see from other cities that people will go to watch baseball no matter how bad it is if there are bars, restaurants, and entertainment around the park.  While Kauffman is great, the area that it is in will never be able to sustain these kinds of amenities when there isn't baseball being played.  Thus, it is far more realistic to put the ballpark somewhere where the amenities will aready exist and be self sustaining absent the ballpark (i.e downtown).  Its about improving the Royals, not improving downtown. 

I don't get it either, this will be a failure, hell it will never get off the ground, this is ALL ABOUT THE CHIEFS and very little about what is best for KC.  Why are our leaders telling us that we don't have enough money to bring the Royals Downtown but this kind of crap is being proposed?

I am to the point where, I don't care if the Royals or Chiefs do leave.  Do it right or stay the same, but don't scew us over for the next 40 years.

SEPARATE THE TEAMS!!!!

1. Move the Royals downtown.

2. Renovate Arrowhead so that it is comparable to Lambeau.

3. Build a cheesey Arrowhead District in front. Unfortunately, there are no tenants that would want to locate there at this point. Focus on creating a nice gathering point before the games instead of creating a year-round destination attraction. Perhaps something similar to the OP Arena District would be ideal.

4. Find the money...

LenexatoKCMO wrote: Its not an issue of needing the ballpark for downtown development.  Downtown has plenty of steam on its own.   Its about making the baseball club competitive destination wise.  Right now one of the number one problems for the Royals is that there is absolutely nothing to do around the ball park before or after the game.  We can see from other cities that people will go to watch baseball no matter how bad it is if there are bars, restaurants, and entertainment around the park.  While Kauffman is great, the area that it is in will never be able to sustain these kinds of amenities when there isn't baseball being played.  Thus, it is far more realistic to put the ballpark somewhere where the amenities will aready exist and be self sustaining absent the ballpark (i.e downtown).  Its about improving the Royals, not improving downtown. 

But the Royals don't profit off of bar sales. And if you think attendance will go up simply because there are bars around the K, I think you are sorely mistaken. People go to see winning teams, not to visit the ESPN Sportszone next door.

Would this plan be better if there was light rail connecting this to other high density areas downtown? (Probably not feasible due to cost)

KCMax wrote: Would this plan be better if there was light rail connecting this to other high density areas downtown? (Probably not feasible due to cost)

This was my first thought too, but even if rail was incorporated, I highly doubt it would inspire anyone to give up their car for an evening. The parking morass is so vast at Kauffman that even if they brought in amenities and entertainments, there'd still be plenty 'o parking.

The bottom line is we need to be concentrating attractions on the R-C-P corridor, most especially downtown. This proposal detracts from that.

trailerkid wrote: 1. Move the Royals downtown.

2. Renovate Arrowhead so that it is comparable to Lambeau.

3. Build a cheesey Arrowhead District in front. Unfortunately, there are no tenants that would want to locate there at this point. Focus on creating a nice gathering point before the games instead of creating a year-round destination attraction. Perhaps something similar to the OP Arena District would be ideal.

4. Find the money...

Hey, that sounds familiar... :p

KCMax wrote: But the Royals don't profit off of bar sales. And if you think attendance will go up simply because there are bars around the K, I think you are sorely mistaken. People go to see winning teams, not to visit the ESPN Sportszone next door.

Oh contrare - take a look at our neighbors to the West in Denver.  The Rockies have mostly been a pile of crap as far as a baseball team since they entered the league yet they have had steady quality attendance numbers throughout.  It is widely attributed to the thriving downtown entertainment district surrounding the ballpark and entertaining atmosphere.  Much the same could be said for Baltimore and several other cities.  People are much more inclined to go to watch a crappy baseball team when there are bars and restaurants around to make a night of it.  Ever been to Fenway?  Wrigley?  SBC/Pac Bell?  Camden yards?  The ballparks and the neighborhoods around them are attractive enough entertainment options that some people will go no matter how bad the team is playing.  Kauffman is capable of offering very little besides the baseball product - and if the baseball product sucks from time to time only the die hards are going to go. 

As to not making a profit off the bar sales - this is only partially true.  If they build a downtown ballpark they would be fools not to put in leasable restaurant /retail space in at street level to compliment what is in the surrounding area  - As has been done in virtually every successful urban park. 

GRID wrote: I don't get it either, this will be a failure, hell it will never get off the ground, this is ALL ABOUT THE CHIEFS and very little about what is best for KC.  Why are our leaders telling us that we don't have enough money to bring the Royals Downtown but this kind of crap is being proposed?

I am to the point where, I don't care if the Royals or Chiefs do leave.  Do it right or stay the same, but don't scew us over for the next 40 years.

SEPARATE THE TEAMS!!!!

Exactly.  I think this is just bait to get voters to approve the sales tax this fall.  I don't have much confidence in Jackson County government getting this, given that they can't even send out accurate property tax bills.  Unless Jackson County turns it over to KC or multi-county stadium authority, this isn't going to happen.

The TSC is a bit of an island just off I-70.  It doesn't seem to really be a part of Kansas City, Independence, or Raytown.  Seems to me that in order to make an entertainment district successful there we might need to tie it in with the surrounding area.  It would be nice if the residential component of the proposal could help achieve that.

mean wrote: Hey, that sounds familiar... :p

Royals = Downtown

Chiefs = upgrade Arrowhead

(for about the millionth time on this forum)

All Arrowhead needs is improvements to generate more revenue for the team. (The suites, better food options, yada, yada, yada)  There is no need to build anything else around Arrowhead.  It is one of the best tailgating expierences in the WORLD.  People go to Chiefs games to tailgate, before AND after the game, some 10 dates out of the year.  There is no need for bars outside, no one would go anyways.  People don't say, "let's make a whole Sunday out of going to the bar, going to the game, and then going to the bar"

HOWEVER... baseball is much different....   The complete opposite actually...  people leave work in the afternoon to walk to downtown baseball venues...  buying tickets that day...  people make a night out of dinner, a game, and then drinking...  Baseball needs to be downtown.. not for downtown (although it would be great) .. not for the Royals (although it would be great).. BUT for the people of Kansas City and the fans of baseball......