Olathe/OP grab the Wizards and build them a Stadium

Discussion about new sports facilities in Kansas City
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Re: Olathe/OP grab the Wizards and build them a Stadium

Post by KCMax »

The team’s owners now plan to pursue special tax incentives for the project.

The Kansas City Wizards are still set on Overland Park for a soccer stadium even though voters rejected a property tax increase for youth soccer fields nearby.

The Wizards still want to surround the stadium with youth fields, said Robb Heineman, a principal in the team’s ownership group.

But instead of using a property tax for the youth fields, the team hopes to secure special tax incentives for the entire project on 300 acres near 159th Street and U.S. 69 in south Overland Park.
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Re: Olathe/OP grab the Wizards and build them a Stadium

Post by jimb »

So, if they build it this way, does this mean the complex will be privately owned (a la the Speedway)?
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Re: Olathe/OP grab the Wizards and build them a Stadium

Post by GRID »

So the OP mayor says he will not support plans for a Wizards stadium today in the Star.

This is a prime example of why it is a bad idea to try to get JoCo involved with issues that effect the entire region (stadiums, transit etc).

They will only delay things for everybody else and the bottom line is they are just unwilling to fund or provide a regional attraction that is not 100% beneficial in Joco and only joco.

I hope wyco, the northland, east jax, somebody can step up and build a nice state of the soccer complex because I guess Johnson County is just too good for such a thing to be in their county.
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Re: Olathe/OP grab the Wizards and build them a Stadium

Post by KC0KEK »

GRID wrote: So the OP mayor says he will not support plans for a Wizards stadium today in the Star.

This is a prime example of why it is a bad idea to try to get JoCo involved with issues that effect the entire region (stadiums, transit etc).

They will only delay things for everybody else and the bottom line is they are just unwilling to fund or provide a regional attraction that is not 100% beneficial in Joco and only joco.

I hope wyco, the northland, east jax, somebody can step up and build a nice state of the soccer complex because I guess Johnson County is just too good for such a thing to be in their county.
Bullshit. OP is smart enough not to bend over and take it from the owners of a pro sports franchise.

As for not stepping up, keep in mind that Kemper Arena was slated to be built in OP until Kemper came along and offered to help fund it on the condition that it be built where it is now.
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Re: Olathe/OP grab the Wizards and build them a Stadium

Post by GRID »

KC0KEK wrote: Bullshit. OP is smart enough not to bend over and take it from the owners of a pro sports franchise.

As for not stepping up, keep in mind that Kemper Arena was slated to be built in OP until Kemper came along and offered to help fund it on the condition that it be built where it is now.
bullshit ;).

If joco had it their way the Chiefs and Royals would be gone if they wanted to play hard ball with major league sports, they would loose..  The owners of the Wizards are not going to be able to build a soccer stadium for the wizards.  There is no way the Wizards generate enough money for them to build a 50-80 million dollar soccer stadium.  The main reason the locals purchased the Wizards was to keep the team in KC and they are already being treated as if they are the big bad billionares out to get joco's money. The city that host such a stadium will benefit far more than the actual team would, that is why soccer stadiums are being built, with tax money, in other towns.

And just because land was set aside in JoCo for the arena doesn't mean jack that it would have been funded and built, plus back then that would be like putting the soccer stadium at county line road.  There was nothing out there (original site of arena) and fewer nimbys and smaller heads to interfere.
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Re: Olathe/OP grab the Wizards and build them a Stadium

Post by KC0KEK »

GRID wrote: If joco had it their way the Chiefs and Royals would be gone if they wanted to play hard ball with major league sports, they would loose..  The owners of the Wizards are not going to be able to build a soccer stadium for the wizards.  There is no way the Wizards generate enough money for them to build a 50-80 million dollar soccer stadium.  The main reason the locals purchased the Wizards was to keep the team in KC and they are already being treated as if they are the big bad billionares out to get joco's money. The city that host such a stadium will benefit far more than the actual team would, that is why soccer stadiums are being built, with tax money, in other towns.
Cities and taxpayers increasingly are playing hardball with pro sports. Sacramento and Seattle are just two recent examples. They're doing that because they realize two things: First, pro sports are not as important as schools, roads, taxes, cost of living, etc. when companies and people are considering staying or relocating. So there's a stronger business case for putting money into what really counts. Second, they realize that pro sports is a business, and if the owners can't make the numbers add up, then they need to rethink their business model.

Sure, some spending would leave the metro if the Chiefs, Royals or Wizards left because some fans of those sports would travel to other cities for games. But they would not move out of KC, and most of the money they would have spent on the Chiefs, Royals or Wizards would go to other local businesses.
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Re: Olathe/OP grab the Wizards and build them a Stadium

Post by kard »

There is no middle ground, is there?

I think the 3 million per soccer field was too much, so yeah, vote that down.  But for Gerlach to say "he can't support special tax incentives" for the Wizards is silly.  Nothing at all?  Please.  Why not work to try to make this happen?
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Re: Olathe/OP grab the Wizards and build them a Stadium

Post by Highlander »

KC0KEK wrote: Cities and taxpayers increasingly are playing hardball with pro sports. Sacramento and Seattle are just two recent examples. They're doing that because they realize two things: First, pro sports are not as important as schools, roads, taxes, cost of living, etc. when companies and people are considering staying or relocating. So there's a stronger business case for putting money into what really counts. Second, they realize that pro sports is a business, and if the owners can't make the numbers add up, then they need to rethink their business model.

Sure, some spending would leave the metro if the Chiefs, Royals or Wizards left because some fans of those sports would travel to other cities for games. But they would not move out of KC, and most of the money they would have spent on the Chiefs, Royals or Wizards would go to other local businesses.
I do not think there is a business model in the world that is going to allow the owners of the Wizards to make enough profit to fund a stadium.  In this case, I believe the owners really believe they were doing something for the city by taking on this financial endeavor.  I am hardly a KS basher....I for one shop all the time in JoCo.....but I had hopes that they would step up and take this on for the metro.   Actually, I do not see this as OP not wanting to spend the money on something that is a metro wide attraction, I see it as yet another case of pandering to NIMBYism in JoCo (see the mayors comments).  
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Re: Olathe/OP grab the Wizards and build them a Stadium

Post by GRID »

Bullshit again.  JoCo would still be a field if it were not for all the things that KCMO provides to the metro area.  Do you seriously believe that people would have moved to this amazing suburban area in freaking Kansas if it were not next to KCMO????  Major league sports are controversial, but they, just like all the other assets that provide the city with a "metropolitan" quality of life are important to the area.

I'm so fucking tired of hearing about how JoCo knows all when it comes to this kind of stuff when they are one of the largest and wealthiest freeloading counties in the entire country.

JoCo is just so damn smart, I wish KCMO was as as smart as JoCo...

I supported this project and I still support what Cerner has tried to do with the Wizards.  I feel for them and hope they don't say the hell with this, it's not worth it and unload the wizards...
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Re: Olathe/OP grab the Wizards and build them a Stadium

Post by KC0KEK »

GRID wrote: Bullshit again.  JoCo would still be a field if it were not for all the things that KCMO provides to the metro area.  Do you seriously believe that people would have moved to this amazing suburban area in freaking Kansas if it were not next to KCMO???? 
Of course not. But do you seriously believe that pro sports were a decisive factor in attracting and retaining people and businesses for JoCo and the metro?
GRID wrote: Major league sports are controversial, but they, just like all the other assets that provide the city with a "metropolitan" quality of life are important to the area.
Again, state and local governments have a finite amount of tax money to work with. That means they have to prioritize. It's difficult to justify spending money on subsidzing pro sports when people and businesses are more concerned about factors such as schools and infrastructure. The most important assets must be given funding priority.
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Re: Olathe/OP grab the Wizards and build them a Stadium

Post by GRID »

Johnson County is the last place to be complaining about a "finite" amount of tax money.  They have more money than they know what to do with because they ARE one of the largest counties in the nation to have very few metropolitan financial responsibilities.

A large county with a nearly brand new infrastructure and a large county that is nearly entirely upper middle class and higher.

There is a reason why JoCo is able to widen every road to 4 or 6 lanes way before development occurs, there is a reason why cities like Lenexa and Olathe can spend tens times as much on aesthetically based improvements to civic projects than other suburban cities, let alone KCMO.

The spui at 87th and 35 is an example of how a city can spend millions and millions on bs "add ons" when they can't support small 1/8 cent metro area taxes.  OP is installing it's own freaking ITS system and has backup generators on all traffic signals for that ice storm that happens once a decade. Everything from Libraries to police cars have far more amenities than even upscale suburban areas of other towns do.

"finate" resources????  Yea right, tell that to Jackson County and KCMO next time they raise taxes to restore the liberty memorial, build or upgrade a stadium or convention center, expand the zoo etc all while trying to figure out what to do with the structures, streets and entire neighborhoods that have been vacated for green pastures of JoCo where the smart people live and vote no for everything but the sidewalks in front of their homes....
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Re: Olathe/OP grab the Wizards and build them a Stadium

Post by KC0KEK »

GRID wrote: Johnson County is the last place to be complaining about a "finite" amount of tax money.  They have more money than they know what to do with because they ARE one of the largest counties in the nation to have very few metropolitan financial responsibilities.
JoCo does not have more tax money than it knows what to do with. New ones are constantly popping up to fund this or that. I know because I've been paying taxes here for nearly nine years.
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Re: Olathe/OP grab the Wizards and build them a Stadium

Post by eliphar17 »

GRID wrote: Bullshit again.  JoCo would still be a field if it were not for all the things that KCMO provides to the metro area.  Do you seriously believe that people would have moved to this amazing suburban area in freaking Kansas if it were not next to KCMO????  Major league sports are controversial, but they, just like all the other assets that provide the city with a "metropolitan" quality of life are important to the area.

I'm so fucking tired of hearing about how JoCo knows all when it comes to this kind of stuff when they are one of the largest and wealthiest freeloading counties in the entire country.

JoCo is just so damn smart, I wish KCMO was as as smart as JoCo...

I supported this project and I still support what Cerner has tried to do with the Wizards.  I feel for them and hope they don't say the hell with this, it's not worth it and unload the wizards...
Maybe you should give yourself a 24-hour waiting period on posting in the Kansas suburbs room...
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Re: Olathe/OP grab the Wizards and build them a Stadium

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eliphar17 wrote: Maybe you should give yourself a 24-hour waiting period on posting in the Kansas suburbs room...
good idea  :)
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Re: Olathe/OP grab the Wizards and build them a Stadium

Post by kcdcchef »

GRID wrote: Johnson County is the last place to be complaining about a "finite" amount of tax money.  They have more money than they know what to do with because they ARE one of the largest counties in the nation to have very few metropolitan financial responsibilities.

A large county with a nearly brand new infrastructure and a large county that is nearly entirely upper middle class and higher.

There is a reason why JoCo is able to widen every road to 4 or 6 lanes way before development occurs, there is a reason why cities like Lenexa and Olathe can spend tens times as much on aesthetically based improvements to civic projects than other suburban cities, let alone KCMO.

The spui at 87th and 35 is an example of how a city can spend millions and millions on bs "add ons" when they can't support small 1/8 cent metro area taxes.  OP is installing it's own freaking ITS system and has backup generators on all traffic signals for that ice storm that happens once a decade. Everything from Libraries to police cars have far more amenities than even upscale suburban areas of other towns do.

"finate" resources????  Yea right, tell that to Jackson County and KCMO next time they raise taxes to restore the liberty memorial, build or upgrade a stadium or convention center, expand the zoo etc all while trying to figure out what to do with the structures, streets and entire neighborhoods that have been vacated for green pastures of JoCo where the smart people live and vote no for everything but the sidewalks in front of their homes....

truth really hurts a lot of people here. again, i just continue to sit back in relative happiness knowing the nationwide trend is to finally go back to the cities and live, and i will be so happy to finally see places like joco ( leeches ) get what is coming to them, struggling to bring in business on their own merits, and believe me, that is coming.

this is so sad for the kcmo area. all the 3m a soccer field shit, the people voted it down based on that bullshit, ummm, how much do you think it costs to COMPLETELY redo the land, build drainage in the ground, put in seating for all the fields, put in lighting for the fields, multiple restroom / concession areas, the all important parking lots ( heaven forbid walking more then 50 feet in beige county ) etc, i guess joco'ers are so used to their tax dollars being spent by their elected goverment officials without a vote, on luring/stealing businesses across the state line from the metro THAT FUCKING CREATED THEM, that when if was finally time to pay for something, they choked.

sad. but like i sad originally, when you have 37 years of someone else paying for stadiums, memorials, shopping centers, arenas, now transit, entertainment districts, when all you are used to paying for is the stealing of kcmo businesses, i guess it is kind of difficult to FINALLY have to pay for something. i dont blame them, close to 40 years of a free ride, why fuck that up?
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Re: Olathe/OP grab the Wizards and build them a Stadium

Post by skim82 »

Well, I knew it was only a matter of time before this thread turned into a JoCo vs. KCMO/KS vs. MO pissing contest. 
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Re: Olathe/OP grab the Wizards and build them a Stadium

Post by Highlander »

kcdcchef wrote: truth really hurts a lot of people here. again, i just continue to sit back in relative happiness knowing the nationwide trend is to finally go back to the cities and live, and i will be so happy to finally see places like joco ( leeches ) get what is coming to them, struggling to bring in business on their own merits, and believe me, that is coming.

this is so sad for the kcmo area. all the 3m a soccer field shit, the people voted it down based on that bullshit, ummm, how much do you think it costs to COMPLETELY redo the land, build drainage in the ground, put in seating for all the fields, put in lighting for the fields, multiple restroom / concession areas, the all important parking lots ( heaven forbid walking more then 50 feet in beige county ) etc, i guess joco'ers are so used to their tax dollars being spent by their elected goverment officials without a vote, on luring/stealing businesses across the state line from the metro THAT FUCKING CREATED THEM, that when if was finally time to pay for something, they choked.

sad. but like i sad originally, when you have 37 years of someone else paying for stadiums, memorials, shopping centers, arenas, now transit, entertainment districts, when all you are used to paying for is the stealing of kcmo businesses, i guess it is kind of difficult to FINALLY have to pay for something. i dont blame them, close to 40 years of a free ride, why fuck that up?
Nice how we group everyone in a county into the same category.  Here are the results of the last bistate tax initiative which would have supported the arts and the stadium complex:

Jackson County: FOR  57%  AGAINST 42%
Platte County: FOR 47% AGAINST 52%
Clay County: FOR 47% AGAINST 52%
Johnson County: FOR 45% AGAINST 54%
Wyandotte County: FOR 36% AGAINST 36%

The differences in the voting results between Johnson, Clay and Platte Counties are insignificant.  Despite a no vote in Johnson County, 45% of the voters voted yes, I suspect that is probably more yes voters than in Clay and Platte Counties combined.  In any event, that's almost half the people in Johnson County that voted for the stadium upgrades and the PAC and I suspect that half is concentrated among the more upper income Johnson County people some of us love to hate.  Before this, Johnson Countians did indeed vote for the improvements necessary to save Union Station in Bi-State I.  True, Jackson County has been extraordinary in supporting community related improvements which have benefitted the metro but would they have done this had the infrastructure been located elsewhere?  At the same time there are the Wayne Flarrety's of the world in JoCo who are always going to oppose everything but its not like everybody in JoCo is against paying for facilities in KC.   
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Re: Olathe/OP grab the Wizards and build them a Stadium

Post by LenexatoKCMO »

GRID wrote: I hope wyco, the northland, east jax, somebody can step up and build a nice state of the soccer complex because I guess Johnson County is just too good for such a thing to be in their county.
If the price comes in at $3.5 mil a field, I doubt it would pass anywhere.  I know plenty of JoCo voters who voted no on this and not a single one of them voted no becuase they didn't want to support soccer or because they didn't want to fund something that would be used by people from outside of JoCo - they all universally said "$3.5 million a field - no F*cking way!".  This vote was doomed the moment people started throwing around the numbers of what it had cost to build similar projects in other cities - a third to a half as much as what was asked for here - and no one on the pro-side could explain why it needed to cost so much more here.  With those kinds of discrepencies no suburban voters would pass it - I don't care what state they are in. 

Grid - if voters in Blue Springs or Lees Summit were asked to pass a tax for some new amenity that benefited the metro and, oh yeah the asking price was two or three times what it ought to cost - would you be holding your neighbors to the same high standards that you are holding the JoCo Voters to and expect them to pass the tax for the good of the metro despite it being horribly overpriced?
Last edited by LenexatoKCMO on Mon Nov 13, 2006 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Olathe/OP grab the Wizards and build them a Stadium

Post by kcdcchef »

LenexatoKCMO wrote: If the price comes in at $3.5 mil a field, I doubt it would pass anywhere.  I know plenty of JoCo voters who voted no on this and not a single one of them voted no becuase they didn't want to support soccer or because they didn't want to fund something that would be used by people from outside of JoCo - they all universally said "$3.5 million a field - no F*cking way!".  This vote was doomed the moment people started throwing around the numbers of what it had cost to build similar projects in other cities - a third to a half as much as what was asked for here - and no one on the pro-side could explain why it needed to cost so much more here.  With those kinds of discrepencies no suburban voters would pass it - I don't care what state they are in. 

Grid - if voters in Blue Springs or Lees Summit were asked to pass a tax for some new amenity that benefited the metro and, oh yeah the asking price was two or three times what it ought to cost - would you be holding your neighbors to the same high standards that you are holding the JoCo Voters to and expect them to pass the tax for the good of the metro despite it being horribly overpriced?
i figured you would come in swift support of your beloved johnson county.

i ask the same question again. since you guys led this 3m a soccer field charge, i ask again, what does it take to clear the site that is there, flatten it out completely, install drainage in the ground, all the restrooms concessions, lighting, parking, seating, equipment buildings, the wizards stadium itself, what does it cost to build all that, since you guys are all saying, hell no, 3.5m a field is WWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYy to high.

okay, so what is reasonable to do what i just said, and tell me the contractor that will do it for the minimum price you propose.
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Re: Olathe/OP grab the Wizards and build them a Stadium

Post by kard »

Chef's TOTALLY right!  I mean, at Arrowhead Stadium we smart Jackson County-ians just shelled out half a BILLION and we're only getting ONE field!  &
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