Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Discussion about new sports facilities in Kansas City
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by flyingember » Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:50 pm

KCPowercat wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:06 pm
Someone should tell the dodgers their stadium will never work with such large elevation changes.
Yes, because a small hill in the middle of a bunch of flat parking is exactly the same.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by flyingember » Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:57 pm

kcjak wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:13 pm
Anyone ever think about moving the current businesses and put a park on the hill where Cambridge Circle is off of I-35? That location straddles the state line, so maybe a possibility for bi-state tax, and room for a small ballpark village development.
It would never happen. There's only one way in and out without a super expensive road project adding new connections. All it takes is one hazmat incident with chlorine gas or such and tens of thousands of people would need to flee on foot into live railroad tracks.

The only realistic way to move downtown is to be within 2-3 blocks of existing parking or a place where someone could build more. The team will demand it, their big ticket holders will demand it.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by beautyfromashes » Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:30 pm

flyingember wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:47 pm
I see a stadium being funded primarily with tax dollars.

There won't be any condos either.
I don’t really think it would pass this time, for a lot of reasons.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by WSPanic » Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:49 pm

I would support partial public dollars to support this, but I wouldn't vote for anything that requires tax payers to cover more than about 1/3 (approx $300-$400M) of the new stadium.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by KCPowercat » Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:03 pm

WSPanic wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:49 pm
I would support partial public dollars to support this, but I wouldn't vote for anything that requires tax payers to cover more than about 1/3 (approx $300-$400M) of the new stadium.
That seems reasonable. Would you vote for more if they do a tourism tax like Sprint center? "We don't pay" approach?

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by WSPanic » Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:34 pm

I doubt it. At a certain point, all of that money comes out of the economy and benefits the owner. Just because it's not me paying all of it doesn't make it more palatable for me. This guy is going to be making money hand over fist with a new stadium. I'd like to see him invest in it.

I'd like to think he's smart enough to figure out how to make money on a venture like this - versus letting the city/county control it (and probably screw it up.)

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by bspecht » Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:40 pm

beautyfromashes wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:07 pm
I’d love for the city to pull development rights from the current East village developer and give it to a Royals controlled entity.
City has full control of one block, parcels in a few others – not sure that's gonna be an effective strategy.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by beautyfromashes » Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:45 pm

bspecht wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:40 pm
beautyfromashes wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:07 pm
I’d love for the city to pull development rights from the current East village developer and give it to a Royals controlled entity.
City has full control of one block, parcels in a few others – not sure that's gonna be an effective strategy.
I don’t understand. We have a developer for East Villafe but no rights to develop it?

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by bspecht » Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:53 pm

beautyfromashes wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:45 pm
bspecht wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:40 pm
beautyfromashes wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:07 pm
I’d love for the city to pull development rights from the current East village developer and give it to a Royals controlled entity.
City has full control of one block, parcels in a few others – not sure that's gonna be an effective strategy.
I don’t understand. We have a developer for East Villafe but no rights to develop it?
In today's article: "In 2017, VanTrust Real Estate was granted the development rights. Since then, the firm founded by the late wealthy businessman Cecil VanTuyl has been acquiring the remaining properties in the East Village area and now controls about 85 percent of the land."

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by KCPowercat » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:26 pm

WSPanic wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:34 pm
I doubt it. At a certain point, all of that money comes out of the economy and benefits the owner. Just because it's not me paying all of it doesn't make it more palatable for me. This guy is going to be making money hand over fist with a new stadium. I'd like to see him invest in it.

I'd like to think he's smart enough to figure out how to make money on a venture like this - versus letting the city/county control it (and probably screw it up.)
Agreed. I'd think part of the money could come from jaxco selling off some of the TCS land for redevelopment.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by beautyfromashes » Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:00 pm

bspecht wrote: In today's article: "In 2017, VanTrust Real Estate was granted the development rights. Since then, the firm founded by the late wealthy businessman Cecil VanTuyl has been acquiring the remaining properties in the East Village area and now controls about 85 percent of the land."
What do you think VanTrust would pay to have a stadium located in the middle of their property? Do a joint venture between VT and the Royals. City agrees to upgrade streetscape and provide TIF for all properties in the district, VT donates land for stadium and a significant payment ($250m?) towards stadium construction, Royals invest similar amount knowing it will see increased revenue in ticket sales and likely ASG.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by flyingember » Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:10 pm

beautyfromashes wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:30 pm
flyingember wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:47 pm
I see a stadium being funded primarily with tax dollars.

There won't be any condos either.
I don’t really think it would pass this time, for a lot of reasons.
I think 250,000 people showed up in 2015 for the world series event and even a vague threat of losing the team would bring out voters you don't see ever. Team fans would register to vote for this one thing. Never underestimate how much personal civic pride is tied up in a sports team.
beautyfromashes wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:00 pm
What do you think VanTrust would pay to have a stadium located in the middle of their property? Do a joint venture between VT and the Royals. City agrees to upgrade streetscape and provide TIF for all properties in the district, VT donates land for stadium and a significant payment ($250m?) towards stadium construction, Royals invest similar amount knowing it will see increased revenue in ticket sales and likely ASG.
Did you seriously expect a company to spend money buying land, give it for free AND pay for the stadium too? Why would they ever do that?

The stadium + an entertainment building like St. Louis has wouldn't in the middle of their property, it would effectively be all of their property. It's the stadium or not the stadium there, there's practically no middle ground.

I would expect them to be paid and they pay nothing to answer your main question. They own the land, they have all the power in the equation right now to tell the Royals no and do something else. If the city wanted the power they would have bought the land themselves.

Unless they are given equity in the team and they actually want this, I see this idea never happening.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by beautyfromashes » Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:20 pm

flyingember wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:10 pm
Did you seriously expect a company to spend money buying land, give it for free AND pay for the stadium too? Why would they ever do that?
Easy, because if you give up half your land but the remaining land that you own around the stadium would be worth a huge amount more and also gives you the easy ability to develop it and make even more money. How much more is a lot next to a NFL stadium worth than an empty lot that hasn’t been able to be developed for decades? 10x? 20x?

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by flyingember » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:03 am

beautyfromashes wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:20 pm

How much more is a lot next to a NFL stadium worth than an empty lot that hasn’t been able to be developed for decades? 10x? 20x?
Not that much, you don't gain 10-20x economic value from something that doesn't happen 347 days of the year.

Looks like 0.1 to 1x increase is the most likely.
https://www.reviewjournal.com/business/ ... t-1642144/

The Royals have way more games but the stadium is still not used 80% of the year. There's other events but they don't fill much time.

The Sprint Center is a good example. It has been one of the busiest arenas in the world in terms of ticket sales (actual people) and yet there's still empty parking lots across the street from it a decade later.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by FangKC » Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:23 am

The parcels don't necessarily gain more development value from having a baseball stadium there. They likely have more value from multiple, adjacent blocks with dense, mixed-use buildings providing retail, office space, and residential. Depending on how many blocks would be devoted to stadium-related purposes, you will end up having a big dead zone for several months of the year with little to no street activity. This, versus having those blocks filled with people moving about going to work, their apartments, and visiting restaurants and stores.

Having a busy downtown year-round also attracts visitors, residents, companies and new workers from the suburbs and out-of-state.

In addition, stadium-related blocks will likely not provide any property taxes if they are owned by Jackson County. The deal will likely include allowing the Royals' ownership to divert sales taxes back into the stadium to pay for construction, amenities (parking), and maintenance.

So the question is, will filling those blocks with dense, mixed use properties provide the City / County more tax revenue long-term than a stadium would?

I'm not necessarily opposed to locating the stadium adjacent to downtown. I just worry about creating more dead zones inside the Loop. There are several: around Bartle Hall, the federal building, and the Jackson County Jail.

The other issue is whether Kansas City can hold on to a major league baseball team. What happens when the new owner dies? What if no local enthusiast billionaire is available to buy the team to keep it here? Fifteen years from now someone might buy the Royals and move them to Austin, Texas. If that happens, what will be done with a baseball stadium sitting empty inside the Loop?

Below is one previous plan done by Pendulum Architects for the East Village.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by chaglang » Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:29 am

FangKC wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:23 am
So the question is, will filling those blocks with dense, mixed use properties provide the City / County more tax revenue long-term than a stadium would?
If it’s typical of the rate of return on small scale developments vs large, multi-parcel developments, the answer is yes. And taxpayer would likely not have to subsidize the mixed use properties - or not at the rate that the stadium would be.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by taxi » Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:07 am

I don't pay much attention to this issue and haven't read through this entire thread, but wonder why I've never heard anyone suggest Columbus Park for a stadium? I think there is 6 to 9 acres assembled and awaiting development.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by flyingember » Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:42 am

taxi wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:07 am
I don't pay much attention to this issue and haven't read through this entire thread, but wonder why I've never heard anyone suggest Columbus Park for a stadium? I think there is 6 to 9 acres assembled and awaiting development.
You're talking about the housing authority land at 4th and Harrison. It's about 6 acres, the stadium is about 12.

Would need to buy 10 acres of land from Laclede Gas to get a plot with the right dimensions

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by alejandro46 » Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:46 am

CP is a quiet residential neighborhood. I suspect the thing the last thing neighbors would like is a huge stadium. Furthermore, there would be minimal density that could spin off of a stadium development.

Sorry to beat a worn drum, but (ideally rail along 31st and/or Linwood) transit to Truman along with a Ball Park Village type development and renovations to add additional suites at the K is my preferred option.
Last edited by alejandro46 on Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by UrbanKC » Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:50 am

When talking about locations downtown if the city decides the best decision is to move them there. Then the East Village seems to make the most sense to me. Considering a stadium on the smaller side, such as Target Field; it could easily fit just northeast of the Fed Building. That location, 19th and Oak & the Riverfront seem to be the only locations that make sense.

The problem that I see with a downtown stadium is that sports facilities are almost purely "commuter" oriented. Meaning that the majority of attendees would be driving in; especially since our mass transit system isn't put to par. Sprint Center was one thing, but a baseball stadium would bring at least twice the amount of people; and therefore twice the amount of cars. Baseball games can also be both during the working hours and in the afternoon/evening hour. So Downtown would have to be able to absorb that amount of cars while also supporting the 100k+ workers parking downtown.

The question should then be: Do we want 10-12 acres of our city core eaten up by a stadium, with more acreage eaten up by additional parking garages?

Are the economic benefits and "tourist" benefits enough to outweigh the drawbacks of having a giant chunk of downtown taken up by a stadium megablock and even more parking garages? Just food for thought...

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