Downtown Baseball Stadium

[brewcrew1000]

I think future baseball stadiums will all be in the 25-35k range. I honestly think new MLS stadiums could pass up MLB in terms of seats

[normalthings]

It's going to have to seat 35k in reality
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... y_capacity

Unless the league can mandate this, I don't know why they would ever build another stadium of that size. The stadium sits empty most days of the year and is pretty empty the few days it is actually in use. There are no workable private financing plans that involve a stadium that will average 50% attendance.

Period - Average Attendance- Avg. Fill Rate Current Stadium - Avg. Fill Rate 30K Stadium

Since Open: 22,762 ; 57% fill rate ; 76%
Since 1990: 21,757 ; 55% fill rate ; 73%
Since 2000: 21,787 ; 56% fill rate ; 73%

The average attendance is only 2,000 more than Sprint Center holds.......

Now consider that many of these Royals tickets are in the $5-$15 range yet still can not find a buyer. They struggle to fill the stadium even with nearly free tickets.

Only 4 seasons in Kauffman's entire history have averaged above 30,000. None have ever come close to the listed capacity of the stadium. Sporting KC on the other hand averages above listed capacity every season.

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Adjusting for inflation, The Cardinals new stadium cost around $10,177 per seat. By that metric, a new Royals stadium of 30K seats pencils out to around $305 million.

[flyingember]

It's not seats filled, it's the total dollar amount spent inside the stadium that matters

They know how many seats to put in to maximize their chance that someone who wants to pre-purchase tickets can buy the seats they want in advance and the person showing up to the game will be able to get a seat they like, and that everyone in the stadium who wants food will be able to find what they like, all matched to historic data. They know to provide activities to bring more people in a family, so that one car has four people in it.

If ~60% seat fill wasn't bringing in enough income we would see ticket prices drop even more to bring people to the stadium so they buy food.


And at that point some people won't buy higher prices tickets, because there's cheaper options available, lowering their price.

This is a classic Laffer Curve situation.

So maybe they will make it smaller, and raise ticket prices? But then they won't have the seats at peak demand and they're losing out on lots of money when the team is doing really well. If they raise tickets in a smaller stadium they'll be seen as a pushing the cost to something the average person can't afford

Better to keep it big so when people want to go because the team is hot there's tickets available.

[GRID]

It's going to have to seat 35k in reality
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... y_capacity

Unless the league can mandate this, I don't know why they would ever build another stadium of that size. The stadium sits empty most days of the year and is pretty empty the few days it is actually in use. There are no workable private financing plans that involve a stadium that will average 50% attendance.

Period - Average Attendance- Avg. Fill Rate Current Stadium - Avg. Fill Rate 30K Stadium

Since Open: 22,762 ; 57% fill rate ; 76%
Since 1990: 21,757 ; 55% fill rate ; 73%
Since 2000: 21,787 ; 56% fill rate ; 73%

The average attendance is only 2,000 more than Sprint Center holds.......

Now consider that many of these Royals tickets are in the $5-$15 range yet still can not find a buyer. They struggle to fill the stadium even with nearly free tickets.

Only 4 seasons in Kauffman's entire history have averaged above 30,000. None have ever come close to the listed capacity of the stadium. Sporting KC on the other hand averages above listed capacity every season.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Adjusting for inflation, The Cardinals new stadium cost around $10,177 per seat. A new Royals stadium of 30K seats pencils out to around $305 million.

Yeah, but the average is just that, average. Without the big crowds of 30-40k on big games, fri/sat nights, home opener, cardinals series etc, the average would be more like 12k. If you don't draw larger crowds to the games that can draw more fans, that does not mean people will show up to a mid week series against Tampa instead. Royals need at least 35k seats, but no more than 40k.

[KCPowercat]

Do we want a MLB team or not? It needs to be bigger seating capacity than AAA fields for eff's sake. Trying to cut dollars here or there is dumb.

[flyingember]

Yeah, but the average is just that, average. Without the big crowds of 30-40k on big games, fri/sat nights, home opener, cardinals series etc, the average would be more like 12k. If you don't draw larger crowds to the games that can draw more fans, that does not mean people will show up to a mid week series against Tampa instead. Royals need at least 35k seats, but no more than 40k.

This. We don't need 48k seats like Arizona.

We probably don't need $41k like Arlington.

But more than $30k. Maybe around the small size of current at 35-37k.

[mgsports]

KCK?

[flyingember]

Trying to fit a major league baseball stadium into four square blocks is completely laughable.

You need nine. Minimum.

It needs four full blocks. This has been covered in extreme detail here. there's 40k seat ballparks on less than the equivalent of four city blocks downtown

[chaglang]

Only 4 seasons in Kauffman's entire history have averaged above 30,000. None have ever come close to the listed capacity of the stadium. Sporting KC on the other hand averages above listed capacity every season.

Suspect that's because Sporting has fielded a far, far better team than the Royals in almost every season since Sporting Park opened. They struggle to sell seats at Kauffman because the team is usually garbage. That's going to be a problem no matter what size stadium they build.

[Highlander]

It's going to have to seat 35k in reality
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... y_capacity

Unless the league can mandate this, I don't know why they would ever build another stadium of that size. The stadium sits empty most days of the year and is pretty empty the few days it is actually in use. There are no workable private financing plans that involve a stadium that will average 50% attendance.

Period - Average Attendance- Avg. Fill Rate Current Stadium - Avg. Fill Rate 30K Stadium

Since Open: 22,762 ; 57% fill rate ; 76%
Since 1990: 21,757 ; 55% fill rate ; 73%
Since 2000: 21,787 ; 56% fill rate ; 73%

The average attendance is only 2,000 more than Sprint Center holds.......

Now consider that many of these Royals tickets are in the $5-$15 range yet still can not find a buyer. They struggle to fill the stadium even with nearly free tickets.

Only 4 seasons in Kauffman's entire history have averaged above 30,000. None have ever come close to the listed capacity of the stadium. Sporting KC on the other hand averages above listed capacity every season.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Adjusting for inflation, The Cardinals new stadium cost around $10,177 per seat. A new Royals stadium of 30K seats pencils out to around $305 million.

Yeah, but the average is just that, average. Without the big crowds of 30-40k on big games, fri/sat nights, home opener, cardinals series etc, the average would be more like 12k. If you don't draw larger crowds to the games that can draw more fans, that does not mean people will show up to a mid week series against Tampa instead. Royals need at least 35k seats, but no more than 40k.

Certainly wouldn't want anything smaller than Kaufman is now. The ultimate goal in any sport is to win and in baseball it's to get to the playoffs and World Series. Post season games will pack the house. Both World Series games against the Mets in KC had more than 40,000 in attendance. Royals averaged 33,000 that year. Build too small and one of two things will happen eventually: The owners are back asking for a new stadium or the Royals leave KC.

We don't need anything larger than 40,000 for sure but low 30's would make it among the smaller stadiums in the baseball. I saw this topic show up on City Scene yesterday. It gathered a lot of interest in the form of comments, didn't see a single comment in favor. While I think a downtown stadium is a good idea, it's an uphill battle with the fans. It's not unlike wanting to replace the airport 15 years ago though, at the time a lot of people still believed it was the best airport in the US. Perceptions will eventually change.

[kas1]

Choosing your stadium's seating capacity based on the peak demand for the whole season is a lot like choosing your shopping center's parking capacity based on the demand for the week before Christmas. It's okay for a stadium to sell out sometimes. It makes for a better environment all of the rest of the time when people aren't spread so far apart in a stadium that's mostly empty, and it's better financially not to build something which is rarely used. The last seats added to the design will be the nosebleeds, which are the most expensive to construct but which bring in the least revenue even when actually used.

[flyingember]

Choosing your stadium's seating capacity based on the peak demand for the whole season is a lot like choosing your shopping center's parking capacity based on the demand for the week before Christmas. It's okay for a stadium to sell out sometimes. It makes for a better environment all of the rest of the time when people aren't spread so far apart in a stadium that's mostly empty, and it's better financially not to build something which is rarely used. The last seats added to the design will be the nosebleeds, which are the most expensive to construct but which bring in the least revenue even when actually used.

The stadium has seats for customers. Parking isn’t apples to apples

The size of the stadium is based on how many seats they can sell across the season, they might need a bigger stadium to have more $250 dollar seats so they can pay the stadium bonds because they need a minimum of X seats under a certain price to ever fill it.

We’re not talking about over sized parking minimums where they want seats, we’re talking about a super complex proprietary algorithm that defines a minimum scope to meet a certain profit margin needed to maintain the team

People will be spread out no matter the size because there’s pricing tiers. You can expect there’s games where right behind home plate is mostly empty and there’s a school group super far away.

There will always be people spread out because businesses buy all or part of a season and don’t use them all

Smaller doesn’t make full stadiums more likely, it makes it less likely you’ll try for a ticket when it’s possible and thus the team lost revenue

Selling out 5000 more seats 20 times per year is equal to 100,000 extra seats filled. At $20 that’s $ 2 million in revenue

So it’s in their interest to sell out more seats when they do because that many extra seats is three full stadiums worth of tickets, or about 5% of of a 30k stadium seats across the season

That’s a huge number and if that doesn’t tell you why they want bigger stadiums than they strictly need

[brewcrew1000]

Wonder if more people would go if the concessions were just cheaper. I'd love to go if a hot dog and soda cost 2-3 bucks. I'm not spending 10 bucks for a 24 ounce domestic beer and 7.50 for some crappy nachos.

[KCPowercat]

Jfc.

[shinatoo]

Fewer seats creates induced demand driving season ticket sales. The more season tickets you sell the fewer single game tickets available letting you set the ticket price higher. The more games that are at or near sell outs, the less you have to spend on promotions and the more you can charge for concessions because you aren't trying to entice people to the game.

Smaller stadiums also have lower maintenance and staffing cost and are better for TV.

TV contracts are where the real money is in baseball.

That's the thinking behind smaller stadiums.

[beautyfromashes]

The argument from the beginning of architectural time: Do you build utilitarian structures that just meet the need and allow for affordability of use? Or do you build an iconic structure that inspires the masses but is unattainable financially for those you need to inspire most?

[earthling]

If it's a stand alone structure with one function then it's costly to do iconic. But if it's multi-use involving several structures within project, it can be more cost effective to make it iconic overall. Is why I propose doing something unique with a field seamlessly merged in between hirises, the stands fused into the lower levels of field facing buildings. And those hirises have all kinds of publicly accessible functions. Would be progress, unique and make KC stand out. And KCMO taxpayers may be more willing to pay a portion if it has *many* publicly accessible functions within the buildings, not just an occasionally used baseball field.

[beautyfromashes]

I know it’s been done SO SO poorly in the past, but have we not reaching the building level where we can have a good multi sport stadium yet? I mean, we have rolling roofs now and other crazy features. Royals/Chiefs/Sporting is out of the question?

[earthling]

That wasn't the kind of multi-use I was thinking of but with some creative updates to moving high quality stands around to change shape of field, might be worth trying again. Otherwise a baseball field and other non-sports events/concerts combined with a lot of publicly accessible uses within the buildings surrounding it could be more cost effective and progressive.

[flyingember]

I know it’s been done SO SO poorly in the past, but have we not reaching the building level where we can have a good multi sport stadium yet? I mean, we have rolling roofs now and other crazy features. Royals/Chiefs/Sporting is out of the question?

No teams are building new multi use stadiums, at least not with baseball. That should tell you something