Downtown Baseball Stadium

[AlkaliAxel]

Every one of those questions in debatable except the landbanking one and since I hate landbanking, I'm going to say that one is a win for 18th & Vine.

I think it’s just become apparent at this point that we have alot more bias towards 18th and Vine here than in reality amongst the people/voters/anyone-outside-of-KcRag. It’s out of touch. I get it, this forum is about diehard KC people who adore KC’s history and everything. Theres not anytbing I can say that’s gonna change the emotional responses to Vine from this forum. Which probably explains why I’m not on board with it since I’m brand new here to the forum and I’m not entrenched like most everyone else here is towards things like Vine. But most people, unlike KCRag, aren’t as into KC history and culture like this forum is. There’s gonna be a bias towards Vine because of the KCRaggers here, and that can’t be competed with on a historical/cultural KC issue like Vine. So whatever, I’m not gonna argue about it anymore because it’s un-winnable on a forum here that’s made for KC enthusiasts/historians- but I have no doubt the average KC resident doesn’t have the same feelings that this forum does about Vine.

And don’t get me wrong I do respect the history of KC greatly, but the stadium is not the approach I would take. And I truly think this forum is out of touch on some historical places/buildings compared to the community. That is KCRag I suppose.


TLDR- KCRag members care a lot more about 18th and Vine than the average KC resident does, due to the fact you’re a member of KCRag in the first place. It’s an un-winnable fight to go against the KCRag current on a historical issue like Vine.

[normalthings]

Every one of those questions in debatable except the landbanking one and since I hate landbanking, I'm going to say that one is a win for 18th & Vine.

Land banking is very debatable. The city already owns all land needed for an 18th Vine Stadium. Vantrust and others own most of the East Village, that is a $75+ million expenses saved by picking 18Vine over East Village.

18th Vine, as discussed, has a lot more opportunity for development and spin-off development. There is very minimal space for additional development if you put a stadium in East Village. I think EV may actually end up pretty similar to STL. A few things immediately adjacent to the stadium surrounded by a broader deadzone. 18th Vine would allow for an actual neighborhood around it.

Team Value is a function of revenue (tickets, sponsorship, if they own a stake in the surrounding development, etc).

The average Facebook commenter is not as well connected as the average Ragger.

[AlkaliAxel]

Every one of those questions in debatable except the landbanking one and since I hate landbanking, I'm going to say that one is a win for 18th & Vine.

Land banking is very debatable. The city already owns all land needed for an 18th Vine Stadium. Vantrust and others own most of the East Village, that is a $75+ million expenses saved by picking 18Vine over East Village.

18th Vine, as discussed, has a lot more opportunity for development and spin-off development. There is very minimal space for additional development if you put a stadium in East Village. I think EV may actually end up pretty similar to STL. A few things immediately adjacent to the stadium surrounded by a broader deadzone. 18th Vine would allow for an actual neighborhood around it.

Team Value is a function of revenue (tickets, sponsorship, if they own a stake in the surrounding development, etc).

The average Facebook commenter is not as well connected as the average Ragger.

1. For the millionth time, the Royals have said they want to be a part of an already emerging area, not the main catalyst for growth in a dead area like Vine. I say this over and over and it keeps getting overlooked.

2. The stadium is a massive part of the value of owning the Royals. The stadiums gonna be worth more if it’s in East Village. The owners will go where their shares of the team will be worth the most- the $75 or so in saving is irrelevant when taxpayers are paying it anyway and team shares go up in value.
^This is exactly what the Miami Marlins owner did. Had the city pay for a new stadium so his team value would go up. Nobody does a move of this magnitude without getting every last dollar.

[normalthings]

Every one of those questions in debatable except the landbanking one and since I hate landbanking, I'm going to say that one is a win for 18th & Vine.

Land banking is very debatable. The city already owns all land needed for an 18th Vine Stadium. Vantrust and others own most of the East Village, that is a $75+ million expenses saved by picking 18Vine over East Village.

18th Vine, as discussed, has a lot more opportunity for development and spin-off development. There is very minimal space for additional development if you put a stadium in East Village. I think EV may actually end up pretty similar to STL. A few things immediately adjacent to the stadium surrounded by a broader deadzone. 18th Vine would allow for an actual neighborhood around it.

Team Value is a function of revenue (tickets, sponsorship, if they own a stake in the surrounding development, etc).

The average Facebook commenter is not as well connected as the average Ragger.

1. For the millionth time, the Royals have said they want to be a part of an already emerging area, not the main catalyst for growth in a dead area like Vine. I say this over and over and it keeps getting overlooked.

2. The stadium is a massive part of the value of owning the Royals. The stadiums gonna be worth more if it’s in East Village. The owners will go where their shares of the team will be worth the most- the $75 or so in saving is irrelevant when taxpayers are paying it anyway and team shares go up in value.
^This is exactly what the Miami Marlins owner did. Had the city pay for a new stadium so his team value would go up. Nobody does a move of this magnitude without getting every last dollar.

East Village is entirely dead. Its 2,000'+ walk to areas with activity. 18th & Vine is an emerging area, east village is dead and surrounded by dead space. Saving 10% of project cost and getting a better site is pretty important. This is going to be my last post on this subject matter, you and Goonies aren't going to see the light anytime soon.

[AlkaliAxel]

Land banking is very debatable. The city already owns all land needed for an 18th Vine Stadium. Vantrust and others own most of the East Village, that is a $75+ million expenses saved by picking 18Vine over East Village.

18th Vine, as discussed, has a lot more opportunity for development and spin-off development. There is very minimal space for additional development if you put a stadium in East Village. I think EV may actually end up pretty similar to STL. A few things immediately adjacent to the stadium surrounded by a broader deadzone. 18th Vine would allow for an actual neighborhood around it.

Team Value is a function of revenue (tickets, sponsorship, if they own a stake in the surrounding development, etc).

The average Facebook commenter is not as well connected as the average Ragger.

1. For the millionth time, the Royals have said they want to be a part of an already emerging area, not the main catalyst for growth in a dead area like Vine. I say this over and over and it keeps getting overlooked.

2. The stadium is a massive part of the value of owning the Royals. The stadiums gonna be worth more if it’s in East Village. The owners will go where their shares of the team will be worth the most- the $75 or so in saving is irrelevant when taxpayers are paying it anyway and team shares go up in value.
^This is exactly what the Miami Marlins owner did. Had the city pay for a new stadium so his team value would go up. Nobody does a move of this magnitude without getting every last dollar.

East Village is entirely dead. Its 2,000'+ walk to areas with activity. 18th & Vine is an emerging area, east village is dead and surrounded by dead space. Saving 10% of project cost and getting a better site is pretty important. This is going to be my last post on this subject matter, you and Goonies aren't going to see the light anytime soon.

Take out the highways blocking it and I’d be open to “seeing the light”. Anything that comes out of that stadium on Vine would be disconnected from the city core and would effectively be sprawl. That’s the core of my issue with it.

[GRID]

There is nothing emerging about much of anything in downtown KC inside the loop east of Grand. That area has so many government buildings which will remain massive dead zones and is surrounded on three sides by highways.

Have you spent any time in the government districts of DC? Same deal on a much larger scale. They are massive dead zones. They don't even have basic restaurants etc that are open to the public. I just don't think putting a stadium there will change that.

I think you will end up with a stadium that is a dead zone nearly 90% of the time. Even during games, areas around stadiums are not very active. Things go crazy before and after games but it's nearly all people just making their way to cars and transit and only last an hour or so.

I have been to every urban ballpark in the country and go to a bunch of games a year in DC and Baltimore, two of the most urban stadiums in the league. 95% or more of fans do the exact same thing with a downtown ballpark as they do with a suburban one. They walk back to where ever they are parked. In bigger cities with real transit systems, they crowd onto the trains too. Even in Baltimore very few people take the light rail. Many do take metro in DC though.

I do think the streetcar will be a popular way to get to the games, but I also don't think it will function very well. The streetcar is not mass transit and if more than just those that actually live or are staying in hotels use it, the streetcar would be overwhelmed. And game traffic will bog them down anyway. However, a downtown stadium may force KC to upgrade the streetcar to dedicated right of way.

Anyway, back to Vine. That IS absolutely an emerging area and it butts up against other emerging areas (east crossroads, jazz district, beacon hill etc) And it's culturally KC. There is nothing about the east village or even the P&L district that is truly culturally KC. Just having the stadium down the street from the NLBM alone is enough to make some real synergy with baseball fans.

[AlkaliAxel]

There is nothing emerging about much of anything in downtown KC inside the loop east of Grand. That area has so many government buildings which will remain massive dead zones and is surrounded on three sides by highways.

Have you spent any time in the government districts of DC? Same deal on a much larger scale. They are massive dead zones. They don't even have basic restaurants etc that are open to the public. I just don't think putting a stadium there will change that.

I think you will end up with a stadium that is a dead zone nearly 90% of the time. Even during games, areas around stadiums are not very active. Things go crazy before and after games but it's nearly all people just making their way to cars and transit and only last an hour or so.

I have been to every urban ballpark in the country and go to a bunch of games a year in DC and Baltimore, two of the most urban stadiums in the league. 95% or more of fans do the exact same thing with a downtown ballpark as they do with a suburban one. They walk back to where ever they are parked. In bigger cities with real transit systems, they crowd onto the trains too. Even in Baltimore very few people take the light rail. Many do take metro in DC though.

I do think the streetcar will be a popular way to get to the games, but I also don't think it will function very well. The streetcar is not mass transit and if more than just those that actually live or are staying in hotels use it, the streetcar would be overwhelmed. And game traffic will bog them down anyway. However, a downtown stadium may force KC to upgrade the streetcar to dedicated right of way.

Anyway, back to Vine. That IS absolutely an emerging area and it butts up against other emerging areas (east crossroads, jazz district, beacon hill etc) And it's culturally KC. There is nothing about the east village or even the P&L district that is truly culturally KC. Just having the stadium down the street from the NLBM alone is enough to make some real synergy with baseball fans.

Lol, nope. I've heard about 100 times on this forum that "East Village would be thriving if it weren't for them holding back for the Royals!". And also "East Village is dead, and it can't emerge!...but Vince can!", so yeah, you guys want two different lanes & narratives. Pick a lane.

The difference is, nobody's holding back development in Vine like EV and it's still not burgeoning.

[mean]

but I have no doubt the average KC resident doesn’t have the same feelings that this forum does about Vine.

They also, by most metrics, hated the new terminal idea until they didn't. And the streetcar. And pretty much everything. I wouldn't base anything on what the "average KC resident" feels, because they are wrong on pretty much everything, every time.

[AlkaliAxel]

but I have no doubt the average KC resident doesn’t have the same feelings that this forum does about Vine.

They also, by most metrics, hated the new terminal idea until they didn't. And the streetcar. And pretty much everything. I wouldn't base anything on what the "average KC resident" feels, because they are wrong on pretty much everything, every time.

On a downtown stadium sure. If it's EV vs. 18 Vine I think average person would prefer EV. because they don't know or care about Vine stuff.

[AlkaliAxel]

Would be great for Vine area if nearly all of stadium is privately funded and doesn't have to go to vote (as long as TIF/Bond is low risk for city/county as well). Am starting to envision this now if the case. But don't see this area happening if county or more has to vote on it and add tax burden, probably won't pass for any kind of move.

I'm starting to think this^ might be the backup plan if the EV vote fails. If it fails, then I could see them pivoting to Vine and trying to get it done without the public vote being needed through these methods mentioned in the post. That whole scenario, I can see.

[mean]

but I have no doubt the average KC resident doesn’t have the same feelings that this forum does about Vine.

I wouldn't base anything on what the "average KC resident" feels, because they are wrong on pretty much everything, every time.

On a downtown stadium sure. If it's EV vs. 18 Vine I think average person would prefer EV. because they don't know or care about Vine stuff.

So they'd be firstly wrong on moving the stadium, and secondly on where it should go is what you seem to be saying? I assume not, that would have been too easy.

[AlkaliAxel]

I wouldn't base anything on what the "average KC resident" feels, because they are wrong on pretty much everything, every time.

On a downtown stadium sure. If it's EV vs. 18 Vine I think average person would prefer EV. because they don't know or care about Vine stuff.

So they'd be firstly wrong on moving the stadium, and secondly on where it should go is what you seem to be saying? I assume not, that would have been too easy.

Other way around. They're wrong in the fact they like to hold back progress.

It's crazy that we've simultaneously heard "The downtown is already too packed, we don't need a stadium to add to it" to also "we need the stadium so we can have more downtown activity because we don't have enough". It's nuts.

[mean]

Not really, that's pretty much par for the course. "Downtown is too packed!" sounds like someone who doesn't know anything about downtowns or urban areas being packed, is terrified of "WHERE WILL WE PARK!?", and wants Kauffman to stay where it is. A typical take, less typical here but we have those folks here too. The other is a fairly typical KCRag take. It is hardly crazy or surprising that people with different agendas and perspectives have diametrically opposed thought processes, even if one is laughably ignorant to the point of being stupefying. But hey, some people think COVID is fake and Donald Trump is actually still the president and JFK and/or his son are coming back from the dead in the vicinity of Dealey Plaza. In context, having disagreements about how packed downtown actually is or is not, and whether it does or does not need more activity, seem like perfectly normal elementary school arguments over whether one's dad could beat up Superman. They're still dumb, but they're not crazy.

[GRID]

If the stadium were to go in the Vine area, where exactly would it go? Does anybody know? I always thought it was basically the site of the KCATA facility which really needs a new location anyway.

[normalthings]

If the stadium were to go in the Vine area, where exactly would it go? Does anybody know? I always thought it was basically the site of the KCATA facility which really needs a new location anyway.

KCATA, yes

[kas1]

East Village and 18th & Vine are both small areas completely cut off from the adjacent neighborhoods by highways and railroads.

18th & Vine may be slightly larger and have a bit of retail/entertainment already in place, but there's still just not a lot of developable land there after you take away 10+ acres for a stadium (and probably more to build parking garages). There's vacant land south of the train tracks. The railroad trench is reasonably narrow, so the cost of decking over part of it should be much lower than the south loop cap, so that's something that can enlarge the neighborhood a bit (but not by a lot since the highway gets in the way after going just a few blocks south of the railroad). The connection from 18th and Vine to East Crossroads is about as good as it can be for an area divided by a highway. There aren't any onramps or offramps right there, so it's just a matter of walking through a little dead zone. So overall there's some potential to connect to the surroundings but it's not ideal.

If you build in the East Village then it has to be between 10th and 12th unless you're demolishing buildings which aren't already destined for redevelopment. A stadium does not fit anywhere else. That leaves just a small ring of available land around the stadium. There's exactly zero potential to build any sort of neighborhood. The land for it simply does not exist. The only reason to build in the East Village -- and it's a big one -- is that it leverages existing parking and transit infrastructure whereas 18th & Vine does not (and in general it's just closer to where people already are). People could theoretically park in the loop and walk to 18th & Vine, but it's a long walk which crosses two highways, which is really pushing the limits of what you can reasonably ask people to do on a regular basis. Walking to the East Village is fine. If there's any long-term desire to fix the highway situation and reconnect the loop with Columbus Park and Paseo West then the stadium is a pretty big obstacle. Vacating 11th St is really bad for pedestrian connectivity to Paseo West and also messes up vehicular access to the highways. Vacating Holmes is also not great when the adjacent street (Cherry) is already interrupted by a superblock, though it's not the end of the world. On the other hand, the easiest part of the east loop to fix (if you're not removing it outright) is the part between 8th and 10th where you can just deck over it, and a stadium south of 10th wouldn't interfere at all with pedestrians crossing in that area, so that still mostly works out okay. And if there's no intention of ever reconnecting those neighborhoods then the East Village works fine as a site which is easily accesible yet also tucked away off to the side.

Of course, the other important aspect of discussion is whether it's reasonable to expect a stadium to create a neighborhood around it, and even whether that should be a goal at all. My experience with urban stadiums is that you stay as far away as possible from them when there's an event going on because transportation in the entire area is completely disrupted. There aren't many people who attend a large number of games each year, and for everybody else the stadium is at best a dead zone which provides no value and at worst it's a source of drunk people making lots of noise outside your window after games and clogging up your transit while you're trying to do other things.

This type of discussion ends up really muddled because "downtown" and "urban" have practically become synonyms in American parlance, and there sometimes seems to be this false dichotomy where something must either be in the middle of the central business district or else it's in the suburbs. Stadiums are hulking monstrosities that sit empty most of the time. I don't think people even on this site really grasp that an MLB stadium's footprint will be far larger than the Sprint Center. You don't want to plop these things down in the middle of neighborhoods, even when that neighborhood is the CBD. They're amenities when they're somewhere nearby so that you can go there when you want to, but they don't make good neighbors. You want them accessible, but not getting in the way. Neither of these sites is ideal. East Village eats up a ton of land in an area that already has a bunch of soulless single-use buildings. 18th & Vine is a bit too far from existing infrastructure. I really feel like the site where Artistry now exists (along with the parking lot to the south) was the only site that didn't have any major drawbacks, but it's too late now for that. I think you could also squeeze in a stadium on the blocks bounded by Truman/17th/Locust/Holmes which would also be good aside from the problem of acquiring all of the land. It's basically equivalent to the East Village in terms of distance from other stuff, but it has the advantage of not requiring any through streets to be vacated (only 16th and Cherry), none of its edges are along streets which would have otherwise been desirable pedestrian paths (17th dead ends, Truman is along the highway, Locust and Holmes have bad highway crossings), there's enough contiguous land nearby to create a real neighborhood, that land would be mostly unaffected by the gameday crowds, and there's been some investment already taking place in that area.

[aknowledgeableperson]

Interesting reading these last few pages of this discussion. All of it reminds me of a saying in politics that goes "It's the economy, stupid." In this case instead of the word economy it is "It's the money, stupid." If it is going to be private money building the stadium then the private money will dictate where the stadium goes.* However, if taxpayer money is involved a much different story emerges. Are you talking just about KCMO voters there might be a good chance of the voters approving a downtown stadium. If one is talking about Jackson County voters I would say the chances of approval drops below 50%, more likely closer to 20 to 25%. And if you are talking about regional voter approval chances drop to almost 0%. And there is no way if taxpayer is involved the Chiefs don't receive a similar, if not greater amount, for Arrowhead and the TSC complex.
Don't forget, KCMO may come up with a great plan but Jackson County could throw it out the window if it counters with a plan of its own. Even KCK and/or the State of Kansas could do the same. The governments need to agree on a plan and then see where the money is coming from. Then one can make a decision on who is paying the bill and how big is the bill going to be.

*If it is purely private money and it is cheaper to build at EV then that is where it will go.

[AlkaliAxel]

Interesting reading these last few pages of this discussion. All of it reminds me of a saying in politics that goes "It's the economy, stupid." In this case instead of the word economy it is "It's the money, stupid." If it is going to be private money building the stadium then the private money will dictate where the stadium goes.* However, if taxpayer money is involved a much different story emerges. Are you talking just about KCMO voters there might be a good chance of the voters approving a downtown stadium. If one is talking about Jackson County voters I would say the chances of approval drops below 50%, more likely closer to 20 to 25%. And if you are talking about regional voter approval chances drop to almost 0%. And there is no way if taxpayer is involved the Chiefs don't receive a similar, if not greater amount, for Arrowhead and the TSC complex.
Don't forget, KCMO may come up with a great plan but Jackson County could throw it out the window if it counters with a plan of its own. Even KCK and/or the State of Kansas could do the same. The governments need to agree on a plan and then see where the money is coming from. Then one can make a decision on who is paying the bill and how big is the bill going to be.

*If it is purely private money and it is cheaper to build at EV then that is where it will go.

I think you win the voters if you make this whole thing more about the Chiefs than the Royals.

[GRID]

East Village is entirely dead. Its 2,000'+ walk to areas with activity. 18th & Vine is an emerging area, east village is dead and surrounded by dead space.

I don't get the hate you have for the Vine area AlkaliAxel. I know you are from JoCo and I guess most people out there just don't care, but a good portion of people that do live in the KC area do care about KC's cultural history.

But normalthings really nails it here. The Jazz/Vine district is an emerging area and it will be so much better than east village which will be surrounded by parking lots, government buildings, highways and hopefully a couple of cookie cutter apartment buildings. 18th Street is the heart of the crossroads district and the Vine district. A streetcar on 18th ties it all together.

Troost, Truman, Paseo etc all are big enough streets to handle the traffic and you have high volume exits to quickly get people to 70 and 71.

I think it's a fascinating location myself to tie the stadium to an actual district. I mean, stop calling the parking lots east of Oak a "village" lol.

My concerns with Vine are:

The raised Highway 71. Ideally, you would want to reconnect at least 17th to Troost or at build pedestrian paths under 71.

How big the footprint will be: Are they planning to tear down the Manual Tech School and other buildings to properly redevelop Truman to 18th and 71 to Paseo?

Will people from the suburbs go to a stadium that is near Paseo and Troost? Serious question.

[AlkaliAxel]

East Village is entirely dead. Its 2,000'+ walk to areas with activity. 18th & Vine is an emerging area, east village is dead and surrounded by dead space.

I don't get the hate you have for the Vine area AlkaliAxel. I know you are from JoCo and I guess most people out there just don't care, but a good portion of people that do live in the KC area do care about KC's cultural history.

But normalthings really nails it here. The Jazz/Vine district is an emerging area and it will be so much better than east village which will be surrounded by parking lots, government buildings, highways and hopefully a couple of cookie cutter apartment buildings. 18th Street is the heart of the crossroads district and the Vine district. A streetcar on 18th ties it all together.

Troost, Truman, Paseo etc all are big enough streets to handle the traffic and you have high volume exits to quickly get people to 70 and 71.

I think it's a fascinating location myself to tie the stadium to an actual district. I mean, stop calling the parking lots east of Oak a "village" lol.

My concerns with Vine are:

The raised Highway 71. Ideally, you would want to reconnect at least 17th to Troost or at build pedestrian paths under 71.

How big the footprint will be: Are they planning to tear down the Manual Tech School and other buildings to properly redevelop Truman to 18th and 71 to Paseo?

Will people from the suburbs go to a stadium that is near Paseo and Troost? Serious question.

My stance against a Vine stadium is entirely about the highways blocking it from the downtown entertainment. That's like the entire point of even going downtown is to be...downtown. To be with all the ongoing energy. 18th & Vine just kills that. It's like trying to create synergy and energy in two different spots- it won't reap the greatest results. East Village is the only one inside the loop that can create that synergy. Not to mention, EV alot closer to streetcar.