Downtown Baseball Stadium

Discussion about new sports facilities in Kansas City
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AlkaliAxel
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by AlkaliAxel »

18th & Vine is never gonna flourish for one simple reason- highway disconnectivity

Don’t have anything much more to add until that issue is fixed.

P.S.- I do prefer the highrises

mean
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by mean »

I-70/670 / US-71 are right there, I-35 feeds directly into them via the east loop.

I'm not going to presume to divine what the real issue people have with 18th and Vine is, but it's starting to come off like a weird within-the-loop fetish.

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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by earthling »

Stepping back a few notches the real issue is the price tag and impact to tax payers.

If there's zero impact to tax payers and low risk to city it can go wherever those paying for it wants. But to get taxpayer support it would probably need to be where there is already strong downtown energy many can identify with (Wash Sq Park, 7th/8th/W Main area) - something they see from streetcar line. EV not an ideal choice but at least has a shot to get more private investment engaged for a project nearly larger than the stadium itself reducing taxpayer impact. 18th/Vine probably has the least shot for taxpayer approval as it would appear as just a sideways move to many. And if any of this happens, could increase chances Chiefs move to KS, which many would be even more emotional about.

And if that's not challenging enough, even if stadium were entirely privately funded, many will still be pissed about a downtown location and the perceived parking problem. I don't think they will impact attendance in the end, Royals performance will have more impact.

Overall, if this is going to require taxpayer support, Vine area should not be the first choice. I personally don't mind it as I was a supporter of the initial 18th/Vine City involvement and engaged with the Jazz museum. But also not a good idea to sell a high risk pricey stadium as a 'potential' economic booster on its own as that is a very dangerous message that politicians don't have to worry about when out of office by the time stadium completes.

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GRID
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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KCPowercat wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:12 pm
Troost streetcar? What?
Just seems like a logical corridor to have a complimenting north south streetcar line.

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GRID
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by GRID »

earthling wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:39 pm

But to get taxpayer support it would probably need to be where there is already strong downtown energy many can identify with (Wash Sq Park, 7th/8th/W Main area)
Either one of those locations would be amazing. But I don't think either one of those locations has any real chance of happening.

It seems like it has come down to East Village vs Vine District. I don't hate either as both could be successful so long as they don't just plop down a stadium and call it done. This will require a multi block development surrounding the stadium at either of those locations for it to be successful. Otherwise it will still end up just a stadium and parking lots.

I just think the Vine district checks off more boxes. However, if they can pull it off at east village, then more power to them.

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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by KCPowercat »

GRID wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:08 pm
KCPowercat wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:12 pm
Troost streetcar? What?
Just seems like a logical corridor to have a complimenting north south streetcar line.
Fine idea I just read it as something that has been an idea and this would make it a reality.

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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by shinatoo »

KCPowercat wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:22 pm
GRID wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:08 pm
KCPowercat wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:12 pm
Troost streetcar? What?
Just seems like a logical corridor to have a complimenting north south streetcar line.
Fine idea I just read it as something that has been an idea and this would make it a reality.
In 20 years there will be streetcars running on Troost.
Quocunque Jeceris Stabit

mean
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by mean »

Tangential to the stadium discussion, but I will be pleasantly surprised if we have any more than the RM->Plaza line done in 20 years. Not like super surprised--it seems well within the bounds of reality--but the amount of NIBYism and negativity about any kind of non-car transportation is still high.

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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by beautyfromashes »

mean wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:03 pm
Tangential to the stadium discussion, but I will be pleasantly surprised if we have any more than the RM->Plaza line done in 20 years. Not like super surprised--it seems well within the bounds of reality--but the amount of NIBYism and negativity about any kind of non-car transportation is still high.
I really wonder if we'll see this with the E-W lines that seem to be pushing forward. I almost expect to see them fail if they require any neighborhood vote (or no vote, for that matter) just on the principle that "you can't tell me what's best for my neighborhood!".

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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by Goonies »

normalthings wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:43 pm
The 18th & Vine stadium will have a mixed-use development. This includes the Keystone Innovation District and planned apartments. You do not need a highrise neighborhood and considering our current growth rates, seeking out true highrises just guarantees a very slow build-out (see St. Louis).
Thankfully this isn't happening

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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by earthling »

GRID wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:15 pm

I just think the Vine district checks off more boxes. However, if they can pull it off at east village, then more power to them.
In order to get enough interest for voter approval, EV or Vine may need a big ass mega multiuse project on scale of P&L that is approved/financed mostly up front, not starting just with stadium and hope others on plan eventually happen - the latter is too high risk. Distributing the risk load across many private entities is the way to go. EV probably has a better shot to draw big ticket investors/developers on scale of a couple Cordish-like given it's within CBD/Loop, but if Vine can bring on something that big financed up front would be fine too - just not feel'n it. Go big up front or don't bother.

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KCPowercat
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by KCPowercat »

Sounds like we're trying to put SoDoSoPa out of business with Shi Tpa Town

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AlkaliAxel
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by AlkaliAxel »

earthling wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:35 am
GRID wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:15 pm

I just think the Vine district checks off more boxes. However, if they can pull it off at east village, then more power to them.
In order to get enough interest for voter approval, EV or Vine may need a big ass mega multiuse project on scale of P&L that is approved/financed mostly up front, not starting just with stadium and hope others on plan eventually happen - the latter is too high risk. Distributing the risk load across many private entities is the way to go. EV probably has a better shot to draw big ticket investors/developers on scale of a couple Cordish-like given it's within CBD/Loop, but if Vine can bring on something that big financed up front would be fine too - just not feel'n it. Go big up front or don't bother.
I honestly think the aspect of this that you’re looking for is the Chiefs.

I think if the Chiefs present an entertainment plan that they would do *contingent on Kauffman moving* that will move the voters more than anything.

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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by earthling »

The trick would be not to replicate P&L. Funding a stadium will be a challenge and spreading risk across many investors with mixed functions might be only way to make it work.
Last edited by earthling on Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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KCPowercat
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by KCPowercat »

Making a live music mecca would be a nice new thing that complements 18/vine spirit.

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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by GRID »

earthling wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:35 am
GRID wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:15 pm

I just think the Vine district checks off more boxes. However, if they can pull it off at east village, then more power to them.
In order to get enough interest for voter approval, EV or Vine may need a big ass mega multiuse project on scale of P&L that is approved/financed mostly up front, not starting just with stadium and hope others on plan eventually happen - the latter is too high risk. Distributing the risk load across many private entities is the way to go. EV probably has a better shot to draw big ticket investors/developers on scale of a couple Cordish-like given it's within CBD/Loop, but if Vine can bring on something that big financed up front would be fine too - just not feel'n it. Go big up front or don't bother.
agree
KCPowercat wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:56 pm
Making a live music mecca would be a nice new thing that complements 18/vine spirit.
Yeah, something like that would be good. I have feeling that the Chiefs might also want to something like that at the sports complex, maybe even retrofit Kauffman for concerts.

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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by KCPowercat »

I was thinking like a Beale street. Small venues and bars


Chiefs village could be a zona Rosa for the east with more entertainment.

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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by normalthings »

mean wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:03 pm
Tangential to the stadium discussion, but I will be pleasantly surprised if we have any more than the RM->Plaza line done in 20 years. Not like super surprised--it seems well within the bounds of reality--but the amount of NIBYism and negativity about any kind of non-car transportation is still high.
Support for transit/rail has shot up in the last 5 years. Pre-streetcar opening city rail votes garnered 40-45% of the vote consistently. We really don’t have to convince that many more voters to be able to do what was impossible in the past.

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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by normalthings »

earthling wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:35 am
GRID wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:15 pm

I just think the Vine district checks off more boxes. However, if they can pull it off at east village, then more power to them.
In order to get enough interest for voter approval, EV or Vine may need a big ass mega multiuse project on scale of P&L that is approved/financed mostly up front, not starting just with stadium and hope others on plan eventually happen - the latter is too high risk. Distributing the risk load across many private entities is the way to go. EV probably has a better shot to draw big ticket investors/developers on scale of a couple Cordish-like given it's within CBD/Loop, but if Vine can bring on something that big financed up front would be fine too - just not feel'n it. Go big up front or don't bother.
When you have 70 acres of development space, you don’t need voter approval. You just need a council approved TIF and Star Bond type program.

The story, location, and land prices, of 18th & Vine make it a lot more attractive than east village for redevelopment.

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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by earthling »

^You sure about that? The Star hasn't been presenting it that way, including talk of potential need of regional tax to pull it off. But even if somehow can be pulled off with TIF/Bonds only w/no vote, you still likely have a huge risk for city/county (edit: and most politicians will likely be out of office before stadium is compete). The most ideal approach is to spread the risk with a multi-use function w/in same property that is near scale of stadium itself, offsetting the cost/risk of stadium itself.

edit2: Though can see it work w/out vote and low risk if the direct net private investment is indeed significant and city risk from TIF/Bond fairly small.
Last edited by earthling on Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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