Downtown Baseball Stadium

[Riverite]

Sorry meant the light rail would spur development not the stadium

[AlkaliAxel]

I don't give a shit about the Legends either. The problem is TSC is just terrible. If after 40 years all you have is Taco Bell then it is far past time to realize the market has deemed the place as a failure. If they moved the Chiefs to JoCo it wouldn't bother me. Just get it out of TSC.

You really need to study stadiums and their economic impact to surrounding areas more. In general, commercial development wants little to do with large stadiums and all their parking lots and traffic.

Even with downtown parks, it's very difficult to keep the area directly around a stadium active. Some exceptions like DC are different animals. Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, St Louis etc have seen a few small hotels and bars. The stadiums in Denver and San Diego were placed adjacent to already hot urban districts.

Look at Milwaukee, Philly, LA etc. Nothing around those stadiums. The TSC is not some exception to the norm.

GRID I understand the economic impact of stadiums and dead zones they cause. That’s why I want it in JoCo and not pushing for a downtown football stadium.

Milwaukee, Philly,LA and Pittsburgh are not even close to downtown stadiums.

The reason why DC & Denver downtown stadiums do better than STL, Baltimore or Cleveland is actually really simple- it’s because they have great vibrant downtowns already and the latter don’t! Baseball works well building off a successful vibrant urban area, it doesn’t do anything for creating growth in an already dying area or dead downtown. That’s a big reason why if the Royals go downtown they need to be in the loop rather than at 18th & Vine. Baseball works where an area is growing, it doesn’t work as a means to create growth in dead zones. Royals we’re right about that idea in 2006, to their credit.

In the case of KC, the downtown is much more vibrant and growing than STL, Cleveland and is more like Denver’s growth. That’s why it would parlay great adjacent of the P&L area.

[beautyfromashes]

If we're honest, neither light rail to TSC or VW will ever happen. KC's highway system is too fat and bloated there really isn't any reason to park and ride and the suburbs aren't dense enough that people could bike or walk to a stop. Why would anyone park at TSC and commute DT the whole 6 miles instead of just driving on a highway that has very little rush hour, definitely not enough to justify the inconvenience of park and ride. The environmental justification is near nil for a 6 mile commute. Going to the airport might make sense so you don't have to pay to leave your car and also want to-terminal service with luggage. Rail to stadiums makes some sense allowing people to hit the bars and not have to worry about driving home all the way. Our best bet is to incentivize density driving increased demand for DT public transportation en mass and expand that culture further into the first ring suburbs and eventually the outer. Make car elimination possible in the core, then Brookside, then Waldo... Limiting suburban edge development to a set demarcation would be ideal but I don't see anyone, either elected officials or mere citizens, suggesting that. It just would get hammered by typical KCians.

[KCPowercat]

There are certainly some long posts in this thread. has anything new been said since we started this discussion about the time we voted on the last renovations?

[GRID]

I don't give a shit about the Legends either. The problem is TSC is just terrible. If after 40 years all you have is Taco Bell then it is far past time to realize the market has deemed the place as a failure. If they moved the Chiefs to JoCo it wouldn't bother me. Just get it out of TSC.

You really need to study stadiums and their economic impact to surrounding areas more. In general, commercial development wants little to do with large stadiums and all their parking lots and traffic.

Even with downtown parks, it's very difficult to keep the area directly around a stadium active. Some exceptions like DC are different animals. Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, St Louis etc have seen a few small hotels and bars. The stadiums in Denver and San Diego were placed adjacent to already hot urban districts.

Look at Milwaukee, Philly, LA etc. Nothing around those stadiums. The TSC is not some exception to the norm.

GRID I understand the economic impact of stadiums and dead zones they cause. That’s why I want it in JoCo and not pushing for a downtown football stadium.

Milwaukee, Philly,LA and Pittsburgh are not even close to downtown stadiums.

The reason why DC & Denver downtown stadiums do better than STL, Baltimore or Cleveland is actually really simple- it’s because they have great vibrant downtowns already and the latter don’t! Baseball works well building off a successful vibrant urban area, it doesn’t do anything for creating growth in an already dying area or dead downtown. That’s a big reason why if the Royals go downtown they need to be in the loop rather than at 18th & Vine. Baseball works where an area is growing, it doesn’t work as a means to create growth in dead zones. Royals we’re right about that idea in 2006, to their credit.

In the case of KC, the downtown is much more vibrant and growing than STL, Cleveland and is more like Denver’s growth. That’s why it would parlay great adjacent of the P&L area.

I'm not against downtown baseball in KC. I think like 70% of KC is though. At least right now. That might change as people start to figure out that they will be spending a shit ton of money on the stadium one way or another, but I kind of doubt it.

And downtown baseball is not going to help the Royals attendance. It will be the same at best. I'm watching the Royals play right now in Cleveland with probably 5k fans in the stadium. I just saw the O's play in front of a crowd of like 2k actually in the seats. Pittsburgh, Cincy etc don't draw well to their beautiful downtown parks. The Nats barely draw better than the Royals and they won the WS last year and play in a market of over 6 million and are located in a thriving residential district many times the size of downtown KC. Meanwhile, Milwaukee draws well to their suburban stadium. So does Atlanta and LA (yeah, LA may as well be suburban). Winning draws fans. That's it.

I'm against moving the Chiefs. That makes no sense to me. As a season ticket holder to the Chiefs when living in KC, I don't recall ever wanting or needing retail etc near the stadium. I just don't understand the reasoning behind leaving the sports complex area. In order to put up a stadium in JoCo , it would have to be really far south.

I find it really sad that so many people are against investing in Jackson County. There is a reason why most of the county looks like shit and so much of much of the economy of Jackson has moved to Johnson. The county needs investment regardless of the stadiums. So rebuilding I-70 with light rail along it instead of taking the stadiums out and creating even more decay and blight would be a better option.

And while "metro" KC is way overbuilt with freeways, the I-70 corridor is not. Much of KC"s overbuilt freeway infrastructure is in the far northland, wyco etc. I-35 in JoCo, I-70 in Jackson and most of 435 in Jackson and Johnson are where 80% of the traffic is even tough that's only like 40% of the metro highways.

[KCPowercat]

The Chiefs are not going to a downtown stadium. let's just stop that silliness now, it's wasting time.

[GRID]

I never said anything about the Chiefs moving downtown. I said they should not move to village west or joco. Don't think anybody has said they are moving downtown.

[AlkaliAxel]

“Winning draws fans” tell that to the Tampa Bay Rays. It regardless- what about the majority of seasons when we’re losing…this is how we keep attendance modest atleast always

Twins would like to have a word with you that downtown stadiums don’t increase attendance.

I don’t think any location change of stadium would affect attendance more a shift upward out of all the MLB teams than moving Kauffman to downtown. It’s gotta be by far the most displaced stadium outside of maybe Oakland. Even some of these teams who “moved downtown” in the last 20 years were moving from spots that were still far closer to urban core than where K is. The flip from 0 to 150k+ in streetcar/walking distance to would be incredible.

[DaveKCMO]

There are certainly some long posts in this thread. has anything new been said since we started this discussion about the time we voted on the last renovations?

No.

[alejandro46]

There are certainly some long posts in this thread. has anything new been said since we started this discussion about the time we voted on the last renovations?

I mean, everything is speculation at this point. The facts we know
-we know Royals are open to a move
-Q wants the team downtown.
-the stadiums are in much better shape than in 2014 and from a fan perspective I don't think they need such an extensive renovation.

The discussion is focused on the Royals: new stadium downtown, new lease at K with renewed stadium sales tax, or some other privately funded option (new stadium or renovation).

Back in 2014, I would say the discussion was more limited because then-ownership was different and I don't think they were weven willing to consider a substantial investment in a stadium downtown. Downtown has also come a long way since 2014.

[beautyfromashes]

There are certainly some long posts in this thread. has anything new been said since we started this discussion about the time we voted on the last renovations?

I've been talking stadiums on here since the time of kcdcchef. Why should I stop now?! I'm sure I've said the same things many, many times again and again. I'm old and forget what I've said sometimes.

[AlkaliAxel]

There are certainly some long posts in this thread. has anything new been said since we started this discussion about the time we voted on the last renovations?

I've been talking stadiums on here since the time of kcdcchef. Why should I stop now?! I'm sure I've said the same things many, many times again and again. I'm old and forget what I've said sometimes.

Figured out today who Mahomes is on the rag...

[KCPowercat]

There are certainly some long posts in this thread. has anything new been said since we started this discussion about the time we voted on the last renovations?

I've been talking stadiums on here since the time of kcdcchef. Why should I stop now?! I'm sure I've said the same things many, many times again and again. I'm old and forget what I've said sometimes.

keep on I just didn't want to reread the same points from back then.

[KCPowercat]

There are certainly some long posts in this thread. has anything new been said since we started this discussion about the time we voted on the last renovations?

I mean, everything is speculation at this point. The facts we know
-we know Royals are open to a move
-Q wants the team downtown.
-the stadiums are in much better shape than in 2014 and from a fan perspective I don't think they need such an extensive renovation.

The discussion is focused on the Royals: new stadium downtown, new lease at K with renewed stadium sales tax, or some other privately funded option (new stadium or renovation).

Back in 2014, I would say the discussion was more limited because then-ownership was different and I don't think they were weven willing to consider a substantial investment in a stadium downtown. Downtown has also come a long way since 2014.

So no. I do agree glass had no downtown desire. Sherman is all for it. That's the big difference in this topic. He has the additional battle of"stadium was just renovated and I'd nice" to tackle

[KC_JAYHAWK]

The weird thing about the Royals and Chiefs is that they are both tied to the Truman Sports complex through 2031. What other city has to deal with two franchises lease agreements at the same time? Probably none. If the Royals want a new downtown ballpark, I think it's going to have to be mostly privately financed. The 3/8 cents sales tax gets split down the middle I believe for both teams. Do you try to extend the sales tax? And what about the Chiefs?
I still think, and I don't like the idea, but to get JOCO to step up to help finance the stadiums, one of them is going to have to move to Kansas, which would most likely be the Chiefs, especially if they want a new stadium as well. So for two new stadiums, we are looking at $3B+. Jackson County residents can't fund that much. I don't know what the solution is, but it should get interesting in the next few years.

[AlkaliAxel]

The weird thing about the Royals and Chiefs is that they are both tied to the Truman Sports complex through 2031. What other city has to deal with two franchises lease agreements at the same time? Probably none. If the Royals want a new downtown ballpark, I think it's going to have to be mostly privately financed. The 3/8 cents sales tax gets split down the middle I believe for both teams. Do you try to extend the sales tax? And what about the Chiefs?
I still think, and I don't like the idea, but to get JOCO to step up to help finance the stadiums, one of them is going to have to move to Kansas, which would most likely be the Chiefs, especially if they want a new stadium as well. So for two new stadiums, we are looking at $3B+. Jackson County residents can't fund that much. I don't know what the solution is, but it should get interesting in the next few years.

I concur. The way I see it going is pretty much exactly this, that they'll do the Royals and then not have money/appetite leftover to keep the Chiefs, but Kansas will since they feel they're ready for this now.

Is there anyway they could do funding mechanism like they did with airport so taxpayers won't be as much on the hook?

[chaglang]

Basically, no. The significant funding will come from either the team or the taxpayers.

[AlkaliAxel]

KC Star finally drops the first look at its poll on the downtown stadium. They do note that it’s still got time left in it for people to vote. However, keep in mind Remington Research is a right wing polling firm and not known to be especially accurate. Somewhere in between the Star and their poll might be the truth?
2,254 votes
Support: 56.7%
Against: 43.3%

https://twitter.com/sportsdailykc/statu ... 66538?s=21

[normalthings]

Basically, no. The significant funding will come from either the team or the taxpayers.

Airport is paid for entirely by users and always has been (aside from Federal funds). City collects taxes from sales at the airport which go to city, state, etc coffers.

A privately financed stadium would charge more for tickets, not pay any or full taxes, and likely redirect tax revenues from a surrounding district.

[AlkaliAxel]

Just curious from all of you, what kind of district do you think would be created around the Royals downtown? Given P&L already has a party district, what would the stadium one be like?