Downtown Baseball Stadium

[AlkaliAxel]

Suspect that either county would pick retaining the Chiefs over the Royals, but the downtown stadium discussion essentially means that Jackson County gets to pick first. I wonder how many people would support a downtown baseball stadium if it basically negates any chance of keeping the Chiefs (should they decide to leave Camarohead). Hell, I wonder if Lucas would support that.

Would they, though? Royals play 81 homes games and Chiefs do 8. So quite literally Royals could be a 10x greater stimulant for boosting physical presence of an area (unless I'm missing something). I understand the Chiefs are valued twice as much as the Royals, but does that value translate into anything for the city that it would miss out on if stadium were in Kansas?

This part is just thought but...Logically, it just makes so much sense for the Royals to be in KC & the Chiefs in Kansas.

Hear me out. Football has become a suburban-stadium based sport, and shit, you're not gonna find any better suburbs almost anywhere in this country than the Kansas burbs- NFL fits perfectly in a suburb that's dense but still spacious. And the Royals are the perfect puzzle piece that a place like downtown KC needs, and that the Royals need.

[FangKC]

Splitting the teams between Jackson and Johnson counties might be the only way to finance two new stadiums.

When push comes to shove, keeping the Chiefs will be the priority locally. I've observed much more passion in the region for the Chiefs than the Royals. In addition, I've observed that Mahomes has attained a nearly God-like status among fans here.

But your point is made. The Royals might produce more sales tax revenue for KCMO because there are so many more games. Baseball is played in warmer weather when people are more inclined to go out socializing before and after games than in cold months when they might come directly from home and go directly home afterward.

I would like to see some fan studies to try and get a gauge about how many of them spend money going out before and after games for each team, and which also draw people into hotel stays. I'd also like to see some analysis of how much revenue fans spend in each stadium during the games each year, and the sales taxes revenues that produces for the local jurisdictions.

[AlkaliAxel]

Splitting the teams between Jackson and Johnson counties might be the only way to finance two new stadiums.

When push comes to shove, keeping the Chiefs will be the priority locally. I've observed much more passion in the region for the Chiefs than the Royals. In addition, I've observed that Mahomes has attained a nearly God-like status among fans here.

But your point is made. The Royals might produce more sales tax revenue for KCMO because there are so many more games. Baseball is played in warmer weather when people are more inclined to go out socializing before and after games than in cold months when they might come directly from home and go directly home afterward.

I would like to see some fan studies to try and get a gauge about how many of them spend money going out before and after games for each team, and which also draw people into hotel stays. I'd also like to see some analysis of how much revenue fans spend in each stadium during the games each year, and the sales taxes revenues that produces for the local jurisdictions.

I bet Chiefs are more popular, but they have alot going against them for KCMO:
1. Royals are the first mover, so they seem to be the ones who'll lock themselves into a deal first. Will there be more money still to go around?
2. Aforementioned, they actually bring in physical growth & more sales tax, in warmer months where people are out and about
3. Chiefs are gonna be twice as expensive than Royals will be and will bring in far less tax. Why pay double for something that returns less revenue & growth to you?

Personally, I don't care where Chiefs go as long they're in the metro, I don't think it matters much what part of metro they're located in because, as stated before by many other people, NFL stadiums don't bring in growth. Yet, they'll still be able to sell shirts anywhere in the metro. Royals far more crucial location. I believe if the Chiefs stay in Missouri, it will require the state legislature getting involved 1000%. For Kansas as well.

[beautyfromashes]

If I were part of JOCO leadership I'd purely be trying to tie up SKC and trying to get a larger stadium for them and a guarantee that they will stay on the KS side. I'd also try to tie the Kansas Speedway into the deal. Those two together would likely be the equivalent of a major stadium/ballpark. If they can't secure SKC, they will move to a better location as well. Joining some type of bi-state sports funding mechanism to make this happen would likely be the best deal they can get.

[FangKC]

I imagine the Chiefs would stay at TSC. While the Metro is growing in the Northland, it's also growing eastward, southeastward and south as well, so TSC would grow to be a more central location over time.

It depends on who is financing a new stadium. If Jackson County residents are financing it, then it's not going into the Northland.

At this point though, if it stays in Missouri, then residents of Clay and Platte counties should probably be contributing to financing any stadium and not just Jackson County residents. If that would happen, then the location might be in play since politics would also be involved.

The other question is, if the Royals go to another stadium, what do you do with Kauffman Stadium -- which might be still in relatively-good condition? Do the Monarchs move from Village West and play at Kauffman?

[alejandro46]

I think Kauffman gets demoed. Upkeep will probably be too expensive over the long run for a then-60 year old stadium.

I can see Chiefs moving to Legends if voters reject a tax initiative comparable to whatever the Royals get. I don't think they necessarially want to though. KS has been burned on STAR bonds in the past, but I think a target like this would be big enough they would pull all the stops out. It's going to take a $1bln or whatever to build a new stadium and I don't think the economics justify it.

We're better off putting 3 measures forward for all 5 regional counties (Platte, Clay, Jackson, JoCO, Wy) to approve: Continue stadium tax for Royals for new build, continue stadium tax for Chiefs for renovation & entertainment village, replace transit sales tax with regional TDD levy that parts of downtown already pays. It's simple, straightforward, and easy to understand. The only additional taxes are the TDD. People are already familar with the TDD and proposed costs and benefits.

[chaglang]

Hear me out. Football has become a suburban-stadium based sport, and shit, you're not gonna find any better suburbs almost anywhere in this country than the Kansas burbs- NFL fits perfectly in a suburb that's dense but still spacious. And the Royals are the perfect puzzle piece that a place like downtown KC needs, and that the Royals need.

Totally agree that the fan culture around football requires much more land area than baseball. But there are a lot of parts of KCMO that are absolutely suburban in land use. A KCMO football option is far from impossible.

Also agree that a football team will bring in less tax revenue, just based on attendance figures. But so much of the stadium discussion will be (already is) about warm fuzzies and not actual economics. I can easily see a scenario where there is a strong preference among voters to keep the Chiefs in JaCo and let the Royals go to another county essentially because, "Mahoooooooooomes". He's been suggested as an effective pitchman for a baseball stadium, can you imagine him pitching somewhere he will actually play?

[earthling]

If able to find a way to mostly privately finance outside TIF-like incentives can take the leverage away from Chiefs.

Perhaps the most realistic way to mostly privately finance is to pursue a multi-use project that is bigger than the stadium itself with stadium merged in (the same lot within hirises, not a standalone island). Focus on residential as key component with some hotel/office combo within same buildings that could be transformed as market demand fluctuates - designed in mind to make transformations relatively easy per floor. Include public services such as moving the downtown library. You'd have many investors/lenders involved splitting the risk and the high profile of the sum product reduces the risk a bit as well as it will be place to be beyond just games/events. Tax payers will be happy, Chiefs have no leverage to expect equal public treatment and you dont' end up with a deadzone between games. Setup a long term publicly aided plan (continuing existing tax probably acceptable) for stadium maintenance/upgrades and Arrowhead gets the same. The challenge of course is finding investors/lenders willing to do this in a smallish market but long term TIF would help.

It complicates the project but the local stadium design firms would probably love the challenge happening in their own backyard. Dubai has pulled off projects 10X more complicated, collaboration tools and processes have improved to allow many cooks in kitchen to pull off such highly complex projects.

[aknowledgeableperson]

And, yes re (1)/$$, if completely privately financed--the free Maserati approach--I think we'd all be game.

According to this poll that's not the case.
https://www.kmbc.com/article/survey-sho ... s/37671237
"A new survey shows Kansas Citians are not enthusiastic about a new downtown baseball stadium — even if the Kansas City Royals pay for all of it.
Kansas City baseball fans like Kauffman Stadium so much that even when a new poll asked about the Royals paying all of the costs for a downtown stadium, barely one in three support the idea and almost half oppose it.
...
Opposition to a downtown park grows as the amount of tax money that could be involved increases. A 50-50 private and tax money split is opposed by almost two-thirds of the likely voters in last week's poll.
The poll was taken right after Royals owner John Sherman said the team could consider a downtown stadium. The poll said many in Kansas City are not familiar with Sherman, who bought the team in 2019.
"He's going to have to out there in the community making his case to residents and groups," Bond said.
"Many people are very loyal to the status quo. They're real comfortable with things. They're reluctant to change," Collison said."

[KCPowercat]

Worrying about polling at this point is pretty pointless.

[TheSmokinPun]

Especially when each & every news station has a complete opposite poll of the other channels. Some have been BUILD RIGHT NOW THIS INSTANT & now this one.

[chaglang]

Maybe, but getting hyped about anecdata and happy tweets doesn't seem much less pointless.

[AlkaliAxel]

The point is only pointless because that’s how every campaign starts. Of course in the beginning you’ll your lowest point- people only know what they have right now, which is Kauffman. The key is then persuading people by:
1. showing visuals of the new world-class stadium they're missing out on
2. Explaining and diffusing the supposed parking nightmare situation with a plan
3. Explaining the economic benefits to the city
4. Why this will actually help the team by gaining more revenue for them to sign/retain players
5. Brining out Mahomes & others to market this
***6. Explaining that you’re gonna be paying $400 mil anyways, so you might as well put it towards something new**

Right now most of the people know basically none of this, so this has no room to go but up.

[aknowledgeableperson]

3. Chiefs are gonna be twice as expensive than Royals will be and will bring in far less tax. Why pay double for something that returns less revenue & growth to you?

Regarding the taxes generated people need to consider a few things:
Although there are fewer home games for football the football crowd per game is much bigger than a baseball game. Let's say the Royals get to an average crowd size of 20,000 per game a football game has an average crowd size of over 70,000 so 8 football games would be just about equal to 28 or more baseball games. Throw in a preseason football game or two and you are well over 30 baseball games.
Have to take into account ticket prices. Tried to find credible information on this but found nothing to compare 2021 ticket prices. But in the past I think the Chiefs have been at least about 25% higher (before discounts and I believe the Royals discount more than the Chiefs). Sales tax computed is based on the actual sales price not the list price.
Take into account the sales taxes from concession sales. Larger crowds generate more concession sales.
And just as important are other events such as concerts at a football stadium. The Royals use to have concerts (went to a few) at Kaufman but those were when there was artificial turf. To my knowledge they have hosted none since the artificial tuff was taken out. Those concerts have large crowds and of course concession sales which would equal even more baseball games. Also the Chiefs would host 1 or 2 preseason games.

It's hard to say if tax revenue is more or less without actually seeing the numbers but I would question the statement of "far less tax". But a new football stadium would definitely cost more than a new baseball stadium and it could be more or less than doubled (too many variables for now). There is also a chance the Chiefs would kick in more of the cost than the Royals.

One thing that might factor into new stadiums therefore a possibility of a downtown baseball stadium is Arrowhead is the third oldest stadium used for NFL football.

[aknowledgeableperson]

The point is only pointless because that’s how every campaign starts. Of course in the beginning you’ll your lowest point- people only know what they have right now, which is Kauffman. The key is then persuading people by:
1. showing visuals of the new world-class stadium they're missing out on
2. Explaining and diffusing the supposed parking nightmare situation with a plan
3. Explaining the economic benefits to the city
4. Why this will actually help the team by gaining more revenue for them to sign/retain players
5. Brining out Mahomes & others to market this
***6. Explaining that you’re gonna be paying $400 mil anyways, so you might as well put it towards something new**

Right now most of the people know basically none of this, so this has no room to go but up.

1. That can be countered by showing visuals what the present stadium would look like with the far less costly improvements. Also a new world-class stadium depends on its cost. A $1B stadium will look much different than a $800M stadium.
2. People are going to rely on their personal experiences rather than something conceptual.
3. That only works if only KCMO is involved in the financing of the plan. Most Jackson County voters couldn't care less about the economic benefits to KCMO.
4. Another very hard sale, something I don't even think the team would be behind since it would be saying we will have a constantly winning team that makes the playoffs.
5. Again what voters are you trying to win over and ties into your other points.
6. Only $400M well that is cheaper than $800M or $1B.

I think the Royals are neutral on where they play, they just want what is most beneficial to them financially. So who makes the best deal wins out. And if that is the case then they people you need to impress first for a downtown stadium are the Jackson County elected officials and the TSC Board. Without them coming on board and uniting with the city a downtown baseball stadium and a new football stadium just about faces the kiss of death.

[AlkaliAxel]

^ I’ll grant you #3, although I’d like to think some people do care.

However…what more can they do to renovate Kauffman and make it look any different at this point? They’ve pretty much maxed out everything at the stadium you can squeeze in. I doubt there’s any visual of Kauffman that can look that much different even with renovations. I think most of that money will go to just keeping it functional since it’s so old. And no matter what, no rendering at TSC is going to be able to compete with a visual of a brand new stadium from scratch that has downtown in the background with a real district surrounding.

Not everyone relies on personal experiences for it, I think all of us here have loved going to the K and we’re willing to go downtown…voters aren’t any different than us. They just need persuading. Why put in $400 mil to a stadium that will look virtually not much different and have to pay again every 15 years? Mahomes helps move learners, btw.

The bottom line is, we only need to get to 51%. We’re not looking to capture every voter.

[GRID]

Even if JoCo were part of a regional tax, why would they not support keeping the Chiefs where they are? It seems like most KS side fans like the TSC where it is. The TSC parking lots, highway access etc are perfect for the Chiefs. Regardless if you renovate or build a new stadium, moving the Chiefs to a different part of the metro would be stupid as hell.

It's a 75k seat football stadium that needs 25,000 parking spaces that gets used 20 times a year. Retail around it is pointless. There is a reason there is not an NFL stadium in the country that is surrounded by retail. A couple have little entertainment districts next to them that pretty much amount to nothing and are subsidized to the max just to keep them open.

Arrowhead is perfectly fine where it's at.

Kauffman could stay or could move downtown. I think either is fine. Downtown would be great, but it's going to be one hell of an uphill battle to convince people to move the Royals downtown. I think a lot of you downtowners are just not accepting the reality that the vast majority of Royals fans and voters have no interest in moving the Royals downtown, no matter the circumstances. It's possible, but it will be one hell of a drawn out battle.

I still think that building a light rail (NOT EXTENDING THE TRAM) to the stadiums and beyond is by far the best thing KC could do for everybody involved.

KC needs regional transit and building light rail down I-70 would solve so many of KC's problems, including the stadiums. 90% or more of the fans at pro sporting events drive home right after a game, no matter where the stadium is. If Downtown were a ten minute light rail ride away, then that makes downtown accessible to ALL the fans of BOTH stadiums that want to be downtown before or after a game. All without having to drag the other 90% of the fan's cars downtown, which do nothing but clog up the city, the trams etc for those not going to the games.

Even if you build a downtown baseball stadium, you still have the problem of not having any real regional transit to get to it and you are still leaving Arrowhead without access to any transit (hotels, downtown etc) making landing major events there like the world cup difficult.

I honestly think that Jackson County would easily pass a multi billion dollar plan to renovate Kauffman (or even possibly build downtown) renovate Arrowhead and build a light rail line from downtown to at least the Independence Center area if not all the way to Blue Springs. You could have the line split at the TSC and go to Lee's Summit as well.

Then people in all of Jackson County can either take the train from where they live or drive to the TSC to park to commute to downtown or go to downtown events, be it baseball, concerts, the river market etc.

It's long overdue for Jackson County infrastructure to be upgraded and for Jackson County to start acting like a big urbanized county. Jackson County is the core county of a major metro area, but it sure doesn't act like it or feel like it.

[beautyfromashes]

Why would we not be fine with the Chiefs moving to VW or some other suburb? They wouldn’t be any further away than they already are. Just pride in being on the MO side? How much is that worth?

[AlkaliAxel]

Or they just threaten to move Kansas and we get our 51%

[AlkaliAxel]

Why would we not be fine with the Chiefs moving to VW or some other suburb? They wouldn’t be any further away than they already are. Just pride in being on the MO side? How much is that worth?

Nothing. It’s a giant waste of money on an ego-trip. Who cares what side of state line they’re on, they’re still gonna represent KC even if they’re in Kansas side. MPLS tried this with their new stadium in 2016 and realized the stadium gives essentially no benefits. The teams brand and selling items is the value, not urbanism.

A good baseline to follow is to see what Buffalo is gonna do with their stadium situation. They’re in negotiations right now, and let’s see what price tag is and how much the public pays.