GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by KCMax »

Maitre D wrote: More than that Lenexa, let's suppose that it WAS cyclical.  That the Yanks/Sox lost their competitive advantage as full rev-sharing hit in 2012.


So what?  KC would be no worse off playing STL, Cubs, Houston & Cinci anyway.  The decision to move really wouldn't be regretted in any way if suddenly, our slave-masters out East were weakened. 
Assuming the Cards, Cubs and Astros didn't decide to exploit their large market by massively expanding payroll.
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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by LenexatoKCMO »

KCMax wrote: Assuming the Cards, Cubs and Astros didn't decide to exploit their large market by massively expanding payroll.
I would say those teams have spent pretty comenserate with their market size (maybe a little under for Huston).  Since when is St Lou, a "large market"? - I think its fair to say that they have been milking every cent out of that market they can - do you really think that there are more folks out there in the cardinal's region that would jump on that bandwagon if they just spent more on the team?  The cubs have consistently been big spenders for some time - they just have had a knack for going about it like a bunch of unlucky idiots until relatively recently.  They already sell out every game and have one of the best TV deals in the country - how much more is there to eek out?

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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by Maitre D »

KCMax wrote: Assuming the Cards, Cubs and Astros didn't decide to exploit their large market by massively expanding payroll.
Um, I pointed out that the scenario involved full rev-share.


And if it never happened, those NL teams expanding payolls (which are maxed out right now as it is) still couldn't touch the payrolls of the Yankees Sox.
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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by LenexatoKCMO »

Speaking of the Cards . . . Loose on a walk off walk?  WEAK!

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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by phuqueue »

Tampa's probably not even going to get a wild card birth?  They're on pace for like, 96 wins.  They're currently a half game behind the Red Sox.  If they don't collapse, they will absolutely make the playoffs.  The Yankees are nothing this year.  They spent the first two months of the season in last place and they're still 5.5 games back.  The Royals are 4-3 against them so far this year, including a shutout victory and a four game series split in New York.  All this whining about the Yankees is not only getting old, but it's not even relevant anymore.  They haven't advanced past the ALDS since 2004, past the ALCS since 2003, and they haven't won the World Series since 2000, in spite of a combined payroll of like two billion dollars (this sounds like an exaggeration, but it's probably not terribly far off the mark) over these eight years.  How often do I see the Yankees sucking in the foreseeable future?  The Yankees suck now.

And the Red Sox?  Look at their roster -- Varitek, Pedroia, Youkilis, Jacoby Ellsbury, Papelbon, Jon Lester, Clay Buchholz, and a lot of their bullpen and backup guys all came up through their system.  Wakefield and Ortiz were signed as free agents, but they were pulled off the scrap heap.  They were Luke Hudson and Emil Brown, except they both turned out to be really good.  Beckett and Lowell were acquired in a trade for prospects, including arguably the best shortstop in all of baseball, Hanley Ramirez, and Anibal Sanchez, who promptly went out and threw a no-hitter in his 13th career start for the Marlins (something that he has in common with two other aforementioned Red Sox draftees).  The Marlins were so unhappy with Lowell that he was basically just a throw-in to get rid of him, so you could argue that he might count as another "scrap heap" acquisition even though he came in a trade instead of as a cheap free agent.  You look at the Red Sox and who are the expensive free agents they've signed?  JD Drew, Manny Ramirez, Daisuke Matsuzaka, and that's about it.  Their deep pockets allow them to keep their great players more than a poorer team like the Royals, but they've largely built themselves from within (which is the same thing the Yankees did when they were actually winning World Series titles in the late 90s).

It's silly to assume that because the AL has been strong for the past few years, the AL will always be strong.  The Red Sox and Yankees spend a lot of money, but so do the Mets, Dodgers, Braves, Cardinals, and Phillies (all over $95M).  Seven of the top 15 and eight of the top 16 payrolls in MLB are in the National League.  For all the attention the Red Sox and Yankees get, NL teams are not afraid to spend outrageous amounts of money either.  The real issue with the Yankees and Red Sox is that the rest of the AL East has sucked for so long that it was easy to take the top two spots.  If the Royals can win 90 or 95 games, they'll make the playoffs regardless of what the Yankees or Red Sox do in their division.  That's all there is to it.  They're going to get outspent in either league, but money, whether you have a lot or very little of it, only matters if it's spent competently.  The Red Sox have traditionally done that, the Yankees not quite so much, and NL teams not as well either -- but those trends aren't set in stone.  There is absolutely nothing barring the Mets and Braves from becoming the Yankees and Red Sox of the NL if they just spend their giant payrolls more wisely -- and there's nothing barring the Yankees and Red Sox from going the opposite direction if they make a few bad choices (the Yankees are already well on their way).  There's absolutely no reason to assume that the regular cycle of relative strength between leagues has been permanently broken.  As recently as 2003, the NL had the edge in interleague matchups (AL was 115-137 that year) and in 2004, the AL was only a game over .500 (126-125).  2005-2008 have been strong AL years, and that may continue for the next few years, but there's no reason to think that it's going to continue indefinitely.

MD, your supposition that if it really is cyclical, the Royals have nothing to lose from switching leagues is not quite right -- if it's really cyclical, then the Royals would have left the now-weakened AL to join the now-stronger NL, and then we'd be complaining that they didn't stay put.  Even if there's full revenue sharing, that's not going to break the cycle, because money is only one piece of the competitive advantage that some teams enjoy over others -- the most important part is player development, which you can do with a lot or very little money.  Not only that, but I'll be pissed that I have to watch pitchers bat every day.  And it still doesn't address the point that if your only way to make the playoffs is to switch to the weaker league, then you're still going to have to hope for a lot of good luck to actually win the World Series -- unless you're content just to make the playoffs in the first place, but if that's the case, then what do you have against Carl Peterson?  The 06 Cardinals totally lucked into their World Series win.  They were 83-79 that year -- even after winning the World Series, they had won fewer games overall than the Yankees, Twins, Tigers, and Mets won in the regular season.  I can pray for a fluke season even without switching leagues, but I'd rather see the Royals as a competently-run organization that wins games, playoff series, and the World Series because they're better than their opponents, not because they got exceptionally fortunate for a while.  Besides, it's way more likely that the NL Champion Royals would be exposed like the 04 Cards, 05 Astros, and 07 Rockies than that they would pull off a fluke victory like the 06 Cards.  I just really don't see a compelling argument to switch leagues.  Playing in the AL isn't the Royals' problem, fielding a horrible team backed by a barren farm system is.  They're taking steps to correct this now, and in the next few years, if Dayton Moore is the competent GM that he has appeared to be so far, we should start seeing greater success, even if we do have to compete against the Red Sox and Yankees.

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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by LenexatoKCMO »

phuqueue wrote: Tampa's probably not even going to get a wild card birth? 
  How much payroll you figure Tampa will be willing to bring on at the deadline?  NY? BoSox?
phuqueue wrote: How often do I see the Yankees sucking in the foreseeable future?  The Yankees suck now.
.538 and gaining steam with a legit shot at the playoffs sucks?  If that is the definition of "suck", good god! what word applies to the Royals?
phuqueue wrote: Their deep pockets allow them to keep their great players more than a poorer team like the Royals,
You make this sound like a trivial detail.
phuqueue wrote: There is absolutely nothing barring the Mets and Braves from becoming the Yankees and Red Sox of the NL if they just spend their giant payrolls more wisely --
The Braves have arguably been more consistent in getting their money's worth than any team in baseball.  They also have one of the most lucrative TV packages in baseball - there isn't much room for revenue expansion there - yet they still can only afford half of what the Yanks/Sox pay. 

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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by Mhudson »

Am I the only one that thinks its crap to move to another league to win?  How about the royals just play better in the AL?  Believe it or not, it can be done.

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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by AllThingsKC »

Mhudson wrote: How about the royals just play better in the AL?  Believe it or not, it can be done.
Right.  But, the Royals are currently a team better built for National League type of play, thus they have the best interleague record.  So, that is why some people think the Royals should be in the NL. 

The keyword above is "currently."
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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by Mhudson »

I get the argument, I guess I just don't understand why its even being discussed.  It was discussed a decade ago, we didn't switch, so lets just play better in the AL.  It'd be nice to have a winning team, but I think I'd rather do it the old fashioned way than switch leagues to "fit our style of play".  Oh well, lets see how we do against the Cards the second time around, and hopefully we can keep this winning up against some AL opponents! 

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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by MidtownCat »

I can't believe nobody is discussing the biggest Royals news of the day.

Yasuhiko Yabuta, The Human Home Run Machine, has been sent packing to Omaha.

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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by phuqueue »

LenexatoKCMO wrote:   How much payroll you figure Tampa will be willing to bring on at the deadline?  NY? BoSox?
Rumor has it Tampa is a sleeper in the CC Sabathia sweepstakes.  Anyway, deadline acquisitions are overrated to begin with.  Take a look at the deals that went down last year -- Red Sox dealt for Eric Gagne, Braves dealt for Octavio Dotel and Mark Teixiera, the Mets got Luis Castillo, etc.  What was the big deal the Indians made to push themselves into the ALCS?  They signed Kenny Lofton, who along with Julio Franco were the only active players last year who could legitimately claim to be older than god himself.  It's nice to be able to plug up a hole in your team with a deadline deal, but it's silly to assume a) that the Devil Rays won't be able to make any deals like the Yankees or Red Sox might and b) that they're doomed if they do stand pat.  They're on pace for 98 wins (I actually checked this time; when I said 96 earlier, that was incorrect) -- deadline deal or not, they're going to be just fine.
.538 and gaining steam with a legit shot at the playoffs sucks?  If that is the definition of "suck", good god! what word applies to the Royals?
A $207 million payroll loaded with future Hall of Famers that is mired in third place, which is unbelievably a drastic improvement over where they were a month ago...yeah, that sucks.  And the Yankees have been finding themselves in this position with increasing frequency the past few years.  "A legit shot at the playoffs"?  What happened to the days when MD would claim before the season even started that they were automatically as good as in?  I love that the .603 Tampa Bay Devil Rays evidently don't have any chance at the playoffs because they can't take on any payroll at the trade deadline, but a .538 team without its ace, with no clubhouse chemistry to speak of, which only a few weeks ago climbed out of the division cellar has a "legit shot."
You make this sound like a trivial detail.
It's not a trivial detail, but it's not as important as people make it out to be.  If you can build up a strong farm system that consistently churns out quality players, the way Oakland, Minnesota, Boston, Florida, Cleveland, etc have done and like Tampa Bay is doing right now, you can afford to get your six years out of someone and then ship him off and plug in a replacement from the farm (although in Boston's case, they can afford to keep them around).  Would I rather have Carlos Beltran than David DeJesus?  I don't know -- DeJesus is hitting .312/.372/.474/.846 right now and Beltran is hitting .275/.375/.481/.856.  Very similar numbers, but Beltran is making $18.6 million and DeJesus is making $2.5 million.  Beltran is probably still a better player overall, but he's not $16 million better, unless you want to pay that much for three more home runs and five more stolen bases.  The problem for the Royals is that their farm system has traditionally been pretty desolate, so if you're looking for guys who came up and effectively replaced the superstar who got shipped out ahead of them, DeJesus/Beltran is one of the very few examples.  Compare that to, say, the A's, who were supposed to be a bottom feeder this year after dealing Dan Haren but are currently in second place (and, based on their run differential, should be in first) or the Twins, who were also supposed to suck after trading Santana but are just a half game back -- clearly losing a superstar player isn't the end of the world if you've built a strong enough farm system to absorb the blow.  The trouble is, the Royals haven't.
The Braves have arguably been more consistent in getting their money's worth than any team in baseball.  They also have one of the most lucrative TV packages in baseball - there isn't much room for revenue expansion there - yet they still can only afford half of what the Yanks/Sox pay. 
"Half" what the Sox pay?  The Red Sox are fourth in MLB in total payroll; you pull Manny Ramirez off the books and they're very close to what the Braves are paying.  Again, the payroll number is not nearly as significant as how it's spent.  With the Braves' payroll, the Royals could have kept the Damon/Beltran/Dye outfield in place along with their existing team with a few million bucks to spare, maybe to bring in another good bullpen arm.  Consider that lineup: LF Damon, CF Beltran, DH Guillen, RF Dye, 3B Gordon, SS Aviles, 2B Grudzielanek, 1B Teahen, C Buck, with David DeJesus as your backup fourth outfielder, Olivo, Gload, Callaspo on the bench, and Pena, German, Gathright god knows where (Gathright and German can go to Omaha, Pena can just get the hell out). Would you be afraid to take that team up against the Yankees?  The Braves have been the Chiefs of baseball, a long string of playoff appearances and almost nothing to show for it -- granted, they did win one World Series and their playoff streak lasted a lot longer than the Chiefs', but is that really your idea of "getting their money's worth"?  If it's money that matters, the NL East standings should probably have the Mets way out in front, the Braves in second, the Phillies a few games back in third, DC firmly in fourth, and Florida mucking about in last place -- suffice to say, that is not what the NL East currently looks like.  Why?  Because the Marlins know how to spend what little money they have and develop players better than just about any other team in the league, which is why they've been around for only a quarter as long as the Royals and already have twice as many World Series titles.

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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

phuqueue wrote: It's silly to assume that because the AL has been strong for the past few years, the AL will always be strong. 

League strength will float back and forth over the course of the years.  Look at the All-Star Game.  The AL dominated for many years into the 60's, I believe.  Then the NL took over and dominated for 25 to 30 years.  Now it is back in favor of the AL.

But if you look at the results of the WS though the AL has had an advantage since the time of the '27 Yankees.

So was is the true indication of league strength?
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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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aknowledgeableperson wrote:
So was is the true indication of league strength?
How much they can bench press.
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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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MidtownCat wrote: Yasuhiko Yabuta, The Human Home Run Machine, has been sent packing to Omaha.
I hope he remembers to not let the screen door hit him on the way out.
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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by schugg »

AllThingsKC wrote: I hope he remembers to not let the screen door hit him on the way out.
let's hope that this is the only omaha trip this year!

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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by KCMax »

Its not like we have to imagine what it would be like if a small market American League team moved to the National League. It actually happened. If there is a market that most resembles Kansas City in baseball in size its Milwaukee. In 1998, when they made the switch, Milwaukee was a franchise pretty similar to KC - small market, low revenue ballclub that hadn't experienced much success in over a decade. This is how they fared in the "easier" National League.

1998 - 74-88
1999 - 74-87
2000 - 73-89
2001 - 68-94
2002 - 56-106
2003 - 68-94
2004 - 67-94
2005 - 81-81
2006 - 75-87
2007 - 83-79
2008 - 43-35

Just one winning season, same as the Royals. They have never won the division. They have never made the playoffs. In fact, only three teams in the NL Central have made the playoffs since 1998. Not surprisingly, they are the three largest markets - Houston, Chicago and St. Louis. The three small market clubs in the Central - Pittsburgh, Milwaukee and Cincinnati - have not made the playoffs in the last ten years.

Would the Royals have a slightly better record if they played in the NL? I think there is little doubt that they would now. Would it turn them from crappy team to contender? No.
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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by Maitre D »

Max also enjoys watching the Yankees - Red Sox monopolize all the All Star game spots each year.

Some sort of masochistic personality, I guess.
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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by KCMax »

Maitre D wrote: Max also enjoys watching the Yankees - Red Sox monopolize all the All Star game spots each year.

Some sort of masochistic personality, I guess.
Yea, because the Royals have been so close at getting a wild card spot every year.
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Re: GO ROYALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by rxlexi »

While I believe KC is firmly an AL town, I think a move to the NL (Central) is at least worth considering, simply due to the fact that we would play the Cardinals regularly.  They have become our only true rival now, based purely on geography, and the intensity of the matchup would fill the stadium pretty consistently.  If for no other reason, it is one worth considering.
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