KCRag Forum

Posted: **Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:13 am**

kas1 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:49 am Scrounge up a few hundred buses that are being retired from service around the country. Run shuttle service between hotels and the stadium before and after games. Charge as much as you want because you have a captive audience.

Mass transit doesn't need to cost a billion dollars. The capacity needed for a World Cup game is orders of magnitude greater than the typical demand for that corridor. Don't pay for a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Design transit that works for the city and add supplemental service for one-off events.

I agree. But, I also don't think the army of dilapidated school buses charging $50/head is going earn us much consideration in comparison to what other cities can offer. And I don't think we should or could build anything between now and then. Using a one time event like the WC as a reason to build mass transit seems misguided.

Posted: **Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:40 am**

I agree, why not do something outside the box, we would have at most 3-5 days worth of games

Posted: **Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:19 am**

langosta wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:46 pm
alejandro46 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:53 pm Group consensus is dedicated ROW rail from DT to TSC is too expensive and would not get done in time, right?
You could build a center running streetcar/light rail hybrid down Linwood or 31st Street to the RI ROW over to the stadium. This ~6.2 mile line would require at least 1 new bridge and sizable earth works around the Blue River. Just scaling up the UMKC numbers, you’re talking about $335 million + $200million Federal Gov. contingency.

A TDD centered around Linwood or 31st wouldn’t be able to pay for that line. You’d need at least a city/county tax for that. I doubt the state or federal government would provide financial support for the project in a timely manner.

Conceptual Timeing: (1) KC is announced as a host in mid-2020. (2) The rest of 2020 is spent securing city/county/state funds via public referendums and or appropriations. Step 2 hinges on starting the conversations well before the official announcement. (3) 2021 rolls around and we start an accelerated design-build program. The Rock Island ROW probably requires the least amount of design work and so construction could commence there first. (4) A new vehicle storage and maintence facility is built either near the Blue River or at the stadiums. (5) Construction wraps up at the end of 2025. (6) CAF Urbos 5 or 7 car trains begin to arrive in Q4 2025 (7) Final Testing and closeout is completed in H1 2026. Testing Team shall take advantage of the design/build nature of the project and undertake most testing on individual segments as completed. Not waiting for the entire whole. (8)grand opening sometime in May/June 2026.

IMHO. State funding isn’t likely but it’s not impossible if done under a gas tax increase. The second previous gas tax proposal would have funded new rail and BRT lines in STL.

So, you’ve build a rail line to TSC! Now what? Arrowhead holds 76,416 fans looking to party down at P/L, Westport, or the Plaza. But our Urbos 3 - 100 can only carry 221 (5 car) or 304 (7 car) at maximum speed of 42 mph. Ride KC Streetcar would have to operate (5 car train) a frequency of 20.9 seconds to move just half of the attendees in 1 hour. For that reason alone it makes almost 0 sense for us to build a streetcar to the stadium. Really it’s only with a dedicated row light rail or commuter rail and more than 1 line to/from Truman’s Sports Complex that we could begin to move those World Cup Crowds

I wouldn't think the goal would be to move everyone downtown. If you could get 20% moved it would be a huge load off the surface street system and the parking at Arrowhead. Options are what is needed. But its cold chance that we will ever build light rail to the stadium unless it part of a regional rail plan that connects the eastern burbs. Indy, BS, LS and Raytown).

Posted: **Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:36 am**

They can’t measure heart in their little formula. I’m positive that if the city asked for housing volunteers to host families during the games because of limited hotel space, there would be hundreds of people volunteer. Yes, I know about AirBNnB. We’re nice enough to do it for free. Carpools to the game? No problem! That would never happen in NYC or CHI. If we get the games, we’ll be the star city out of all of them.

Posted: **Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:25 pm**

If KC loses the bid because poor public transit it would be a huge shame.

What is the minimal throughput required on game day to move people from the Fan Experience (Union Station) to TSC? 2k people/hour? Our road network is overwhelmed during the avg. Chiefs games with majority personal vehicle transit. It's those 20k+ people coming in from out of town that have no cars that will be a big challenge. We're going to need a lot of BIRDS to get everybody there!

Posted: **Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:55 pm**

alejandro46 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:25 pm If KC loses the bid because poor public transit it would be a huge shame.

If won't be the first time.

Posted: **Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:29 pm**

DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:55 pm
alejandro46 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:25 pm If KC loses the bid because poor public transit it would be a huge shame.
If won't be the first time.

I'm sure people are working hard to figure out how to make pump those rookie-league basement numbers up.

Here is a few ideas that I think, at a minimum, a Fifa judge would expect from a KC bid transit improvement plan

(1) Dedicated hotel shuttles, running continuously from Airport. Here's the largest hotels in the metro, add in Lowe's in there. Since each hotel would best know when their guests are arriving, they could set up shuttles at the appropriate times. The hotels would need to provide additional funding for more temporary buses to achieve higher LOS.

(2) Dedicated hotel shuttles from largest hotels to Union Station or TSC. Dedicated temporary bus lanes/shoulders on the appropriate routes. It would be unclear when people would decide to go there or back so frequency would need to be really high on and approaching gameday.

(3) Dedicated BRT line from Union Station to TSC on game day. The fastest BRT in the us on this list is the Newark Airport BRT. If we only express stops (Union Station to TSC) and a feeder hotel circulator maybe it's possible without causing the lines at the hotels to be 5 hours long on game day.

(4) 60,000 Bird because millennials love the scoots

That's probably 90k worth of free internet consulting, right? I accept cash, check, or Bird credits.

Posted: **Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:43 am**

alejandro46 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:25 pm If KC loses the bid because poor public transit it would be a huge shame.

I don't get it.. Highways are still open to the public, right? And KC has what.. the largest highway system of any major city in the US?

Posted: **Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:23 am**

langosta wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:46 pm
alejandro46 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:53 pm Group consensus is dedicated ROW rail from DT to TSC is too expensive and would not get done in time, right?
So, you’ve build a rail line to TSC! Now what? Arrowhead holds 76,416 fans looking to party down at P/L, Westport, or the Plaza. But our Urbos 3 - 100 can only carry 221 (5 car) or 304 (7 car) at maximum speed of 42 mph. Ride KC Streetcar would have to operate (5 car train) a frequency of 20.9 seconds to move just half of the attendees in 1 hour. For that reason alone it makes almost 0 sense for us to build a streetcar to the stadium. Really it’s only with a dedicated row light rail or commuter rail and more than 1 line to/from Truman’s Sports Complex that we could begin to move those World Cup Crowds

Finally somebody with some common sense about transit and the fact that the streetcar in kc is not "mass" transit. The streetcar in KC is basically an urban trolley similar to what you see in European cities only less robust and without complimenting subways etc. (FYI, I like the KC Streetcar, it's just not something that will ever go to the stadiums, airport etc). The fact that the city will not be running streetcars to UMKC in at least a center lane situation is proof that expansions will be basically the same thing, so it's not going to transition into some sort of light rail system like it does in Houston or Denver once it leaves downtown.

If KC wants to land the world cup it will have to at the very least build a mixed use development at the TSC that would have some hotels etc, but it would also need to build a high efficiency transit connection to the stadium from downtown. Even a real BRT system would be better than the streetcar.

But considering the I-70 between downtown and the stadiums looks like total shit and should have completely torn out and been rebuilt 15 years ago, it's highly unlikely that KCMO, Jackson County and Modot could get their shit together in time to implement such a large project, fund it and get it built in such a time period. It could easily be done and many other cities have done more in less time. KC just does not have a history of pulling something like this off. It sure would be awesome if it could though. The city and county should be in the planning stages of building some some sort of hotel village at the complex that could be converted to apartments or something after the world cup. I think the lack of nearby hotels and other hospitality infrastructure will hurt KC's chances more than anything. Build a mixed use village next to the stadiums for a few hundred million and rebuild I-70 with a transit spur to the stadiums to connect to the streetcar and KC is in...

Posted: **Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:19 am**

A mixed use development for potentially three games? To what end?

I think people might be overthinking this a bit.

Posted: **Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:59 am**

If the TSC is going to be the home of the Royals and Chiefs, why not a mixed use village? There is an abundance of land and parking that could support some restaurants, entertainment, hotels and apartments. Where is the nearest cinema - 10 miles? And only a couple of decent hotels for miles.

Posted: **Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:14 am**

kcjak wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:59 am If the TSC is going to be the home of the Royals and Chiefs, why not a mixed use village? There is an abundance of land and parking that could support some restaurants, entertainment, hotels and apartments. Where is the nearest cinema - 10 miles? And only a couple of decent hotels for miles.

There's a reason there is an abundance of land and parking. This conversation has been going on for 50 years and we still haven't been able to trick anyone into building anything decent near there.

Anecdotally - The area is exactly the type of place (intersection of two interstates) that a guy like John Q Hammons was throwing up convention center/hotel complexes for about the entire lifespan of the TSC. He had a fetish for Missouri sports and would have been a perfect developer for that area. And he never thought about touching it. I think developers want high-end suburban homes to be a bit closer than they are to TSC.

Although, if we do get the World Cup, Distrikt Biskit House (sp?) is gonna be lit.

Posted: **Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:22 pm**

Part of the transportation challenge for an event of this scale is that half of TSC's surface parking will be consumed by World Cup apparatus (media, etc.) for a month so throw everything you think you know about a Chiefs game out the window. The focus will be getting people to Arrowhead from the urban core and from KCI to the urban core (hotels, festival plaza), with some shuttling from outlying communities (the hotel reach could be 100 mile radius).

As far as permanent transit investment you might get Linwood MAX connecting to Main streetcar.

Posted: **Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:06 pm**

I doubt that's even the full picture. It wouldn't consume just the sports complex, it could consume everything to go with getting to and around KC.

You know how when the president comes into town whole freeways shut down while he moves through? Imagine I-29 and I-70 closed not for one motorcade but multiple ones across most of the day the week of games. One thing you can count on a high level foreign dignitary not accepting is sitting in traffic. Every airport in KC will be used too for private jets. MKC will run out of space so I-35 will be impacted from digitaries flying into Johnson County.

I would expect there to be very little on site parking if any that's not for someone with an escort to the stadium.

Posted: **Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:48 pm**

They will also need to take out about 3,000 seats in Arrowhead too.

Posted: **Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:13 pm**

johnmatrix wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:48 pm They will also need to take out about 3,000 seats in Arrowhead too.

For the right size field to fit?

Posted: **Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:52 pm**

WSPanic wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:13 pm
johnmatrix wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:48 pm They will also need to take out about 3,000 seats in Arrowhead too.
For the right size field to fit?

IIRC I remember Soren Petro talking about it basically they would need to remove corner end seats. Something about not being enough room for the corners of the field.

Posted: **Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:16 pm**

Despite what KCStar reported earlier today, The International Champions Cup sold out tonight. I would say that at least 15% of the seats in my area were double booked on top of that. Leaving the stadium, I heard multiple groups complain about being double booked.

https://www.kansascity.com/sports/mls/s ... 1162.html

Posted: **Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:35 pm**

From the FIFA 2026 Bid Book.

Posted: **Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:47 pm**

Kansas City is competing against: Baltimore, Cincinnati, Denver, Houston, Miami, Nashville, Orlando, Philadelphia, and Seattle.

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