Thoughts on Denver

[bbqboy]

 

People live in Denver for the jobs, but the weekends are spent in the mountains with the year-round recreational opportunities.  Unbelievable traffic returning to the city on Sunday evening.

It sure beats living in Montana.

I'm of a different mind. That exact lemming effect is why we fled Scottsdale to actually live IN the mountains in Southern Oregon.
Montana rocks too.  Lots of literary and social interaction between Ashland and Missoula.
 
Montana vs. Colorado. Hmmmm

[mlind]

I'm of a different mind. That exact lemming effect is why we fled Scottsdale to actually live IN the mountains in Southern Oregon.
Montana rocks too.  Lots of literary and social interaction between Ashland and Missoula.
 
Montana vs. Colorado. Hmmmm

Unfortunately, a lot of people have moved to the mountains in Colorado.  Vail was created and Aspen ruined (from my point of view).  Many old mining towns have now become destinations.  I know it's good for their economy, blah, blah, blah, but all the historic character is wiped out.

I now live in California and lots of my fellow citizens have moved and continue to move to Oregon like you did. Is Montana next? 

[loftguy]

I agree with you Mlind.  Telluride, Durango, and Steamboat Springs, along with Aspen (the front range of Colorado, too) have all been morphed by west coast refugees.  I know that Oregonians are pretty militantly anti-transplant and to some degree the more popular spots in Montana, Idaho and Wyoming are increasing alarmed by the economic tsunami's these new arrivals bring with them.

I was in Denver/Boulder in the late 80's and early 90's.  Business shifted from a small town/midwestern sensibility to a very southern California mindset.  Much of the culture was affected, too, although the green/counterculture/nature movement seemed to mitigate the LA impact on general lifestyle and community consciousness.

[Downtowner]

I was in Denver for a weekend and came away with many of the impressions given here. One striking thing is it is as flat as Dallas. Yes, the mountains loom in the distance, but it is one striking difference with the rolling--and greener-- terrain of KC. The lack of rain there shows in not much in trees, etc.

I attended a large social event. I was one of the few people from out of town. Talk always quickly turned to where I was from. There was a general disdain in their reactions about KC ("it sounds very bor... um, quiet"..."well that's a good place to get away from").  I was shocked that no one had been here (except one Californian who gushed about how great KC was to the surprise/horror of the locals). They really think Denver is this unbelievably great place. When I did ask people what there was to do and see, I didn't get much info. While Denver has bombarded this city with tourism ads/billboards, we apparently have not a thing there to lure people (after all, we're one of the closest cities even at 9 hours). They have zero impression of KC. They were even shocked there are two million people here. I think they imagine Wichita. 

I do like the mass of all their amenities downtown. We have ours scattered to the wind. Also, they have a lot of highrise and new condos downtown. But it does strike me as very California in that everything is new. Not much character. I'll take KC's neighborhoods any day over Denver's. Our city is also much more beautiful than the flat, mostly tree-less landscape they have. It's still a cool city but let's face it, not
so different from here.

[Appraiser]

Downtowner, I couldn't agree more, I've had the same experience not once but three times.  The moutains are awsome and downtown Denvers growth is impressive but the city as a whole is boring and full of chain restaurants.

[GRID]

Denver is in a different league than KC.  Period.  KC doesn't have enough "grit" or green (Most of KC's green space is wasted or just grass/trees and is not used recreationally anyway) to even come close to closing all the other gaps.

As far as people from Denver thinking KC is boring.  Shit, you must not get out much.  That's what the entire country thinks of KC, unless they have been there.  KC = wichita to most of the country...

Even people from Denver that have driven through KC have horrible images of the city.  Think about it.  Driving into KC from Colorado is simply depressing.  The city seems rural/industrial as you drive into the city.  It looks like an old industrial city that is very sparsely developed and has many run down areas and very little suburbs.  As you drive through downtown, the skyline looks tiny from the west.  It looks smaller than Omaha.  Then you pass downtown, you have 15 miles of 1950's urban interstate and run down areas before you have a few suburban exits east of 470 and that's it.  That's KC.  The drive across KC via 70 is similar to the drive across Peoria, IL, only in Peoria, they have rebuilt the interstates, have developed both sides of the riverfront etc.

Now, if people got off 70 and drove south into the city, that image should change for the better, but I can't tell you how many people I know that have driven through KC via 70 and told me their image of the city is small/industrial/ghetto/abandoned.  That's the image we give to 1000's of travelers everyday that pass through KC.

KC is a nice city, but it's not really a peer to Denver anymore.  The city has made and just continues to make the wrong decisions and there are too many areas the city is just way too far behind in.

Denver=A vibrant, bustling true "big city" next to the mountains.
KC=A city that has some vibrant areas, but it can't seem to quite get over the hump and be more like a Denver or Minneapolis and KC is in the middle of hundreds of miles of farmland that nobody really wants to live next to.

But it's cheap.

Truth...

[trailerkid]

Grid, I know your whole thing is my dick is bigger than your dick, but do you have any clue how many people love kc that thought it was Podunk previously? Most of the people I know with a favorable opinion of the region have lived in the bay, Socal, puget sound, Portland etc (aka places that make Denver look like the yuppie joke it truly is). And a lot of these people STAY HERE or plan on moving back. There is a fucking reason beside skylines and light rail.

There is something to be said for a city that permeates with authencity and history-- wounds and all.

[GRID]

Grid, I know your whole thing is my dick is bigger than your dick, but do you have any clue how many people love kc that thought it was Podunk previously? Most of the people I know with a favorable opinion of the region have lived in the bay, Socal, puget sound, Portland etc (aka places that make Denver look like the yuppie joke it truly is). And a lot of these people STAY HERE or plan on moving back. There is a fucking reason beside skylines and light rail.

There is something to be said for a city that permeates with authencity and history-- wounds and all.

What's your point?  You mean people that come to KC are impressed with the city?  I never said they wouldn't be.  People come to KC with super low expectations.  Once people are here, they tend to be ok with the city and how "EASY" it is to live a quiet urban life here.

I think Denver offers more, has done more to take advantage of the things they have etc.  That's my opinion.  KC is a great city that offers a nice, "real" and slower paced and less expensive version of urban living.

But KC has not been able to capitalize on its qualities and take itself to the next level.  KC is still missing some major components that would truly make the city comparable to Denver and many other cities.

BTW, Denver has some amazing urban neighborhoods, it's not all plastic...

That's all.  That's my opinion.

[mlind]

Denver is flat - it's on the plains.  And there is a lot of land and that leads to suburban development that will probably stretch to the Kansas border someday.

The climate in Denver is semi-arid, so except for the older neighborhoods, trees are in short supply.  My sister always said you could tell when someone from KC moved to Denver because their lawn died waiting for the rain that never came.  Kansas City wins when it comes to beauty.  When I left KC to go to college in the San Francisco area, my first look was the drive from the  airport to SF.  It was September (remember there is no rain from April to October) and I thought it was the ugliest place I'd ever seen. 

I only go to Denver to visit family, but I do have to say that they do a lot with their parks.  Flowers everywhere.  My nephew got married in the Denver Botanical Gardens and it was gorgeous. 

People always put down the mid-west with the exception of Chicago.  I'm not sure that's ever going to change. 

[staubio]

As far as people from Denver thinking KC is boring.  Shit, you must not get out much.  That's what the entire country thinks of KC, unless they have been there.  KC = wichita to most of the country...

This is the point, though, and maybe it explains why Denver is moving forward. They think their town is the coolest but don't really know why, nor do they have a lot to suggest to you regarding what you should do and see in their city. They just live in Denver, Denver is cool and that is that. While you may not agree, I consider KC to compare well with Denver, so it is telling that Denverites universally look down their noses at us as if they were one of the greatest cities in the world is funny.

Of course, some of this swagger would go a long way in KC.

[Downtowner]

What is really telling is that we compare favorably to Denver in many ways but with a MILLION less people. We are at least building the kind of amenities that outshine many larger cities. Let's face it, everything going up is state of the art---the Bloch addition at the Nelson, the Sprint Center, and the PAC.

The funniest moment was when I asked a local what I should take in while there over the weekend " I think REO is in concert". They were serious.

[Highlander]

Denver is in a different league than KC.  Period.  KC doesn't have enough "grit" or green (Most of KC's green space is wasted or just grass/trees and is not used recreationally anyway) to even come close to closing all the other gaps.

As far as people from Denver thinking KC is boring.  Shit, you must not get out much.  That's what the entire country thinks of KC, unless they have been there.  KC = wichita to most of the country...

Even people from Denver that have driven through KC have horrible images of the city.  Think about it.  Driving into KC from Colorado is simply depressing.  The city seems rural/industrial as you drive into the city.  It looks like an old industrial city that is very sparsely developed and has many run down areas and very little suburbs.  As you drive through downtown, the skyline looks tiny from the west.  It looks smaller than Omaha.  Then you pass downtown, you have 15 miles of 1950's urban interstate and run down areas before you have a few suburban exits east of 470 and that's it.  That's KC.  The drive across KC via 70 is similar to the drive across Peoria, IL, only in Peoria, they have rebuilt the interstates, have developed both sides of the riverfront etc.

Now, if people got off 70 and drove south into the city, that image should change for the better, but I can't tell you how many people I know that have driven through KC via 70 and told me their image of the city is small/industrial/ghetto/abandoned.  That's the image we give to 1000's of travelers everyday that pass through KC.

KC is a nice city, but it's not really a peer to Denver anymore.  The city has made and just continues to make the wrong decisions and there are too many areas the city is just way too far behind in.

Denver=A vibrant, bustling true "big city" next to the mountains.
KC=A city that has some vibrant areas, but it can't seem to quite get over the hump and be more like a Denver or Minneapolis and KC is in the middle of hundreds of miles of farmland that nobody really wants to live next to.

But it's cheap.

Truth...

I find it strange you would start your comparison with a view of KC from I-70.  While KC does not put its best foot forward along I-70, one's perception of Denver would not be much better if one never exited I-70.  Like any US city outside of Texas, you have to get off the interstate to experience either city.  East of I-25, I-70 in Denver is a pretty ugly mess of industry and warehouses with only distant views of its impressive downtown.  West of I-25, things do not improve much until one approaches the Golden area.  Of course, the Front Range is always serving as a backdrop to any west bound traveller and that is something that KC will never match.  Nonetheless, when living in Denver, both my wife and I missed the more aesthically pleasing aspects of Kansas City.

I would also disagree regarding the drive between KC and Denver, while parts are dull (particularly between Oakley Kansas and Limon Colorado) there is a surprsing amount of topography through the Flint and Red Hills.  The Plains are what they are but they are anything but "depressing". 

KC will never have the recreational opportunities that Denver offers and that is what attracts the young crowd which in turn attracts business, money and all the nice things a progressive attitude and a lot of money can do for a city.  I love the fact that Denver is pretty vibrant downtown but KC may not be as far behind as you might believe.  It's certainly well ahead of where I now live (Houston) despite the fact that Houston even has a light rail line.  Frankly, I think Denver pays a pretty steep price for all of it's attributes.  The drive back into Denver from the mountains on Sunday night, always bad when I lived there 20 years ago, has become a bit more "depressing" to me than the trip across Kansas.  I remember climbing in my teens (late 70's) and being the only people on the summits of Colorado peaks, in the late 90's when I last climbed in Colorado, I shared summits with hundreds of other climbers, there were often 1000+ people on the trails of the near-Denver peaks on busy summer weekends; the recreational experiences has changed much for the worse.  Given the changes that have occurred in rural mountainous Colorado along with paying over 500,000$ for a house/condo I could get for 250,000$ in KC, I decided it just wasn't a place I wanted to live anymore.   

[chingon]

I would also disagree regarding the drive between KC and Denver, while parts are dull (particularly between Oakley Kansas and Limon Colorado) there is a surprsing amount of topography through the Flint and Red Hills.

Sorry to be a pedant, but Highlander probably means the Flint Hills (b/n Topeka/Manhattan) and the Smoky Hills (b/n Abilene/Hayes). Both are lovely, the Flint Hills are one of this country's 10 most unique geographic features.

The Red Hills or Gyp Hills, while maybe the most "traditionally" dramatic geophysical area in Kansas, lie in Southcentral KS along the OK border.

Denver is slightly better than Kansas City in almost every way, but somehow just not as cool.

Everything I wrote is fact.

[Highlander]

Sorry to be a pedant, but Highlander probably means the Flint Hills (b/n Topeka/Manhattan) and the Smoky Hills (b/n Abilene/Hayes). Both are lovely, the Flint Hills are one of this country's 10 most unique geographic features.

The Red Hills or Gyp Hills, while maybe the most "traditionally" dramatic geophysical area in Kansas, lie in Southcentral KS along the OK border.

Denver is slightly better than Kansas City in almost every way, but somehow just not as cool.

Everything I wrote is fact.

You are exactly right.  I drove through the Red Hills a lot when I lived in Amarillo and searched for an alternative to I-40/I-35.  The Smokey Hills are indeed what I was refering to along I-70. 

The only thing I would disagree with is Denver being better; although it has a better downtown, it lacks anything as nice as the Plaza corridor and is generally not as attractive of a city outside of its downtown with the exception of the far western burbs that abut the foothills.

[trailerkid]

What's your point?  You mean people that come to KC are impressed with the city?  I never said they wouldn't be.  People come to KC with super low expectations.  Once people are here, they tend to be ok with the city and how "EASY" it is to live a quiet urban life here.

I think Denver offers more, has done more to take advantage of the things they have etc.  That's my opinion.  KC is a great city that offers a nice, "real" and slower paced and less expensive version of urban living.

But KC has not been able to capitalize on its qualities and take itself to the next level.  KC is still missing some major components that would truly make the city comparable to Denver and many other cities.

BTW, Denver has some amazing urban neighborhoods, it's not all plastic...

That's all.  That's my opinion.

Denver offers such an exciting, hectic, urban pace. 

I will never live in a city that was remade by California rejects in the 70s/80s. That's just gross.

[Highlander]

Denver offers such an exciting, hectic, urban pace. 

I will never live in a city that was remade by California rejects in the 70s/80s. That's just gross.

California rejects in Colorado was a 90's phenomenon and that continues to this day.  Until the 90's, most implants in Colorado were like myself, from more eastern states.

[chrizow]

Sorry to be a pedant, but Highlander probably means the Flint Hills (b/n Topeka/Manhattan) and the Smoky Hills (b/n Abilene/Hayes). Both are lovely, the Flint Hills are one of this country's 10 most unique geographic features.

The Red Hills or Gyp Hills, while maybe the most "traditionally" dramatic geophysical area in Kansas, lie in Southcentral KS along the OK border.

Denver is slightly better than Kansas City in almost every way, but somehow just not as cool.

Everything I wrote is fact.

dude, welcome back.

[GRID]

I wasn't talking about I-70 across Kansas.

Driving across Kansas is actually one of the nicer states to drive across.  Kansas is a pretty state to drive across.  I have driven on just about every interstate in the country.  There are dozens of worse states to drive across than Kansas.  The problem with Kansas is there is no real reason to stop.

I was referring to the KC area portion of 70.  That's depressing.

70 in Denver is not impressive but it's modern, wide, etc.  The Stapleton area is re-developing, Golden is a neat area and as you drive through the city, your eyes are focused on the relatively massive Denver skyline and the mountains.

KC's skyline looks tiny for from the east and west and most of the I-70 corridor looks like ass on both sides of the state line.

It's just a bad impression.  Do you rate a city via the view from the interstate?  No.  But I was simply stating how the city appears to people from Denver as they drive through and most do just that.  Drive through KC on to the east.

I actually think there is MORE to do and see in KC.  KC has more attractions and more high quality attractions than Denver.  Denver has more sports teams and fans, KC has nascar.  Not sure if that evens it out.

There is a lot to do in KC.  I have always said that KC has the attractions and culture of a city 2-3 times its size.

Where KC lacks is just general day to day life, basic infrastructure, recreation and transit.

You can go to KC and have a good time, but on any given day, the city has many issues and it doesn't act like a major thriving urban city like Denver does.  KC can be a very urban and bustling city, but you have to time it right.

I personally like the hundreds of miles of bike trails, the light rail, the river walks and ped bridges, the extensive bus system etc.  I like a city to feel busy and bustling.  I like a city to feel like a city.

KC will someday connect its dots and bring areas like the Loop and Crown Center etc together and eliminate the dead spaces in the city.  Recreation in KC sucks.  It really does.  And that is one of the most popular attractions in every city in the country now.  Greenways and ped bike corridors that tie urban nodes together.  KC is WAY behind in this aspect.  Same with transit etc.

KC is great city that holds its own.  But I personally think Denver is one of the few cities that offers a more complete package. 
Denver is not perfect either.

[loftguy]

Grid, I agree with every thing you have said in this thread.  I am skeptical though, that KC will connect the dots.  We seem to be stuck.

[teclis]

Well here is my view on Denver. First of all let me say that I have lived in 4 areas of Denver over the last 10 years. They are Lakewood, Denver, Ken Caryl, and Thornton. Each place has had their positives and negatives, however the one thing they have all had in common was how easy it was to walk or ride out my front door and within 2 blocks I could be on a trail that went for miles. This above all else is what I miss about Denver.
I was born in San Diego, grew up in Topeka and have lived in Denver (4 times), Seattle, and Kansas City (3 times). I have also seen most of the country and there are few places that I would rather live in then KC. To me Denver just seems?. well to new for me. Outside of a great downtown I?m just not impressed. There are small pockets of neighborhoods that have shops and restaurants, but to me, nothing better then what Brookside or 39th street has. Most neighborhoods are just to new. Capitol Hill and the Highlands area are two places that come to mind in Denver that are nice, but again KC neighborhoods are similar. What Denver doesn?t have is anything like the Plaza, Crossroads area, or Westport. The area around Cherry Creek is ok, but again to new and rich to me. In my mind the restaurants are not even close. The only thing that Denver has is some great healthy fast food. If you have never had Tokyo Joe?s or Wahoo?s Fish Taco you?re missing out. I really hope those two are the next big chains to be picked up from Denver.

Some things that Denver has is great parks. At just about any place in the metro you could find parks that kick ass for the kids. Very modern playgrounds and good use of ponds (they call them lakes) for walking around. THAT is something KC has a long ways to go. I was shocked to find though that there are very few Frisbee Golf courses in the metro. KC has way more. As for recreation, well the mountains are nice but are way to crowded on the weekends. It was becoming so bad that you had to go up during the week or arrive a day early and leave a day late on the weekends just to stop from going mad in traffic. KC does have many things to do for recreation, especially if you like going to the lake.

Some things that I never liked about Denver was how flat and brown it is. While I loved the weather and dry air, I really missed the greenery. I would tell people that Denver is dirty, not with trash but from lack of water. I also hear that Denver is a great sports town. Well as a huge hockey fan I must say that they do love their sports. However, just like most major cities, they only like them when they are winning. I must say that as a season ticket holder when the Blades were here, I don?t think KC would support a pro hockey team, although I would love to be wrong.
Well since this is already too long I?ll sum up. Denver has some great things going for it. They are a metro that thinks as a whole and not as individuals, a great transit system, awesome parks and trails. These are things that the KC metro should be working on as a whole. What they don?t have in MY opinion is a sense of history, great manmade attractions, and diversity. There is no reason to talk about the things that are out of KC?s control like weather and mountains. You could just as easily say that one of the worst things about Denver is the fact that there are no other major cities within a 500-mile radius. Again, Denver has no control over that.

I am so glad to be back in KC, even though there are lots of things that KC needs to improve on, it has the ?it? to me.

Also, while I would love for every person who drives thru KC from the highway to be impressed, I really don?t give a shit if they can?t make time to get off the highway and see the city. Personally, if I?m driving thru a big city, I always make some time to get off the highway and see it. I also take time to research the city so that I have some idea about the places to see. If more people did this we all know that the impression would be much improved.