North Kansas City

[Tosspot]

Staub, I think I have to agree with the sentiments of your post. Ever checked out Red X? It's that discount store in Riverside. Only there can one easily find ninety year old women lugging oxygen tanks behind them, buying a case of beer and six cartons of Best Choice brand cigarrettes.

Though I'm not as familiar with NKC, Riverside seems to fit this bill too.

[dangerboy]

I have always really enjoyed NKC, but I think one of the things that keeps it from being a cutting edge, cosmopolitan inner 'burb city are its demographics.  At the risk of proliferating tenuous stereotypes, I'm going to say that I think much of NKC and the inner northland as a whole is "white trash".  I spend a lot of time all over the metro and do most of my travelling on a bike, so I have a perspective many don't. 

This is very true.  NKC and KC North originally developed as working class suburbs to support the industries in NKC and the Claycomo Ford plant.  South of Vivion Road has lots little cracker boxes that were thrown up right after WWII.  The Briarcliff area is an exception.  And the newer parts of the Northland like Tremont, Riss Lake, Parkville, Staley Farms, etc. are just as ritzy as anything in Leawood.

Northgate Village will do a lot to raise the bar in NKC itself and the inner Northland.  The prices there are significantly higher than any of the existing housing in NKC.  KCMO is also starting turn a lot of attention to redeveloping the inner Northland before it becomes blighted.  There are redevelopment studies underway for both the Vivion and North Oak corridors.

[KC0KEK]

I've heard NKC and KCN referred to as the Brooklyn and Queens of Kansas City.

[KCN]

Who you calling a queen? 

[Thrillcekr]

I have always really enjoyed NKC, but I think one of the things that keeps it from being a cutting edge, cosmopolitan inner 'burb city are its demographics.  At the risk of proliferating tenuous stereotypes, I'm going to say that I think much of NKC and the inner northland as a whole is "white trash".  I spend a lot of time all over the metro and do most of my travelling on a bike, so I have a perspective many don't. 

While NKC is definately better than the neighborhoods immediately up the bluffs along North Oak, I think they share a lot of the same demos.  The number of times I've been harassed on my bike on North Oak are probably greater than the sum of all of the other a-holes all over the city, and I ride in JoCo to get to work.  Observing the people travelling along this route and you notice some trends.  The number of people that are smoking is overwhelming.  The number of people that are overweight are overwhelming. 

You need more economic diversity to create a great place.  You also need people that care.  I think the whole hillbilly stereotype people have about Missouri and may associate with our city is strongly reinforced in much of the Northland and it scares me.  I seriously feel like I'm in a different state when I cross the river and especially when I climb the North Oak hill out of the flood plain.  How will culturally rich new settlers attracted to Northtowne interact with existing people that seem to me to be hostile to everyone but their Dodge Caravan with 6 kids?

I think you need to go back and take a closer look.  One of the first things I notice about the city of NKC is that it's one of the most ethnically diverse areas of the metro.  There are a few small spots around the south part of North Oak that would fit what you describe but it's definitely not any worse than I've seen in JoCo, East and Central Jack, or some parts of Wyandotte.

As far as assholes laying on thier horns and things such as that, I'd beg to differ on that too.  I used to have to drive around JoCo all day when I did patrol security and they take the cake.  I have noticed a slight increase in that sort of behavior up north though and I suspect it's a trend that will continue to grow for the same reason it did in places like Overland Park.  The more crowded it gets, and the longer people have to wait in traffic, the more irate drivers you're going to come across.  That has absolutely nothing to do with whether somebody is "white trash" or not.  If that were the case, New York City and LA would be the white trash capitals of the world.

As for people being hostile, that's absolutely ridiculous.  If you ask around you'll find a significant number of new northlanders will tell you that one of the things they enjoy about living in that part of the city is that it's laid back for the most part (for now) and a lot of the residents have that friendly sort of "nobody is a stranger" attitude.  That's something I never felt when I lived in Jackson County or during the abundant amount of time I've spent in JoCo.  It's one of the reasons I'm reluctant to move to downtown.  I love the downtown area but the people there tend to be more of the distrustful type that aren't exactly eager to get to know anyone.  Eventually I will have no choice but to move there since I'll be taking some classes at UMKC and won't be able to make it from work to my evening classes on time if I don't relocate but I'll do so grudgingly.  I'll miss being around people like my neighbor who knocked on my door shortly after moving in and invited me over for tacos or the guy I always run into when I eat at 54th Street that gave me free Chiefs tickets and helped me carry the two new (and heavy) tv's I bought up the stairs..  I'll also miss people like the Pakistani guy downstairs that saw me outside rotating my tires and came out of his apartment to help me.  If I had a choice, I'd rather live around people like that than people who don't "smoke" and aren't "fat".

[staubio]

I think you need to go back and take a closer look.  One of the first things I notice about the city of NKC is that it's one of the most ethnically diverse areas of the metro.  There are a few small spots around the south part of North Oak that would fit what you describe but it's definitely not any worse than I've seen in JoCo, East and Central Jack, or some parts of Wyandotte.

As far as assholes laying on thier horns and things such as that, I'd beg to differ on that too.  I used to have to drive around JoCo all day when I did patrol security and they take the cake.  I have noticed a slight increase in that sort of behavior up north though and I suspect it's a trend that will continue to grow for the same reason it did in places like Overland Park.  The more crowded it gets, and the longer people have to wait in traffic, the more irate drivers you're going to come across.  That has absolutely nothing to do with whether somebody is "white trash" or not.  If that were the case, New York City and LA would be the white trash capitals of the world.

As for people being hostile, that's absolutely ridiculous.  If you ask around you'll find a significant number of new northlanders will tell you that one of the things they enjoy about living in that part of the city is that it's laid back for the most part (for now) and a lot of the residents have that friendly sort of "nobody is a stranger" attitude.  That's something I never felt when I lived in Jackson County or during the abundant amount of time I've spent in JoCo.  It's one of the reasons I'm reluctant to move to downtown.  I love the downtown area but the people there tend to be more of the distrustful type that aren't exactly eager to get to know anyone.  Eventually I will have no choice but to move there since I'll be taking some classes at UMKC and won't be able to make it from work to my evening classes on time if I don't relocate but I'll do so grudgingly.  I'll miss being around people like my neighbor who knocked on my door shortly after moving in and invited me over for tacos or the guy I always run into when I eat at 54th Street that gave me free Chiefs tickets and helped me carry the two new (and heavy) tv's I bought up the stairs..  I'll also miss people like the Pakistani guy downstairs that saw me outside rotating my tires and came out of his apartment to help me.  If I had a choice, I'd rather live around people like that than people who don't "smoke" and aren't "fat".

Woah, there.  Struck a nerve, didn't I?

I'm speaking to people's rudeness on the road while I'm on my bike.  It is purely empirical.  I've had more people try to run me off the road, yell at me to "get on the sidewalk", pull up behind me and honk, etc.  This is the hostility that I'm talking about.  My personal favorites are when a gigantic man tried to pick a fight with me and when a large man told me to stay on the sidewalk in front of his van-load of unkempt kids.  His wife was sporting a Chiefs jersey that was quite flattering.

Perhaps I don't have the perspective because I don't get far outside of the North Oak corridor when I'm up there, but my other observations are based upon my observations as well.  North Oak between Vivion and the bluff is overwhelmingly white, usually overweight, often in pick up trucks, usually smoking, etc.  I'm not trying to pass judgement, I'm just telling you what I see.  Go sit on the side of the road for an hour and you'll see the same stuff go by.

Don't get me wrong, I love NKC.  It is at the top of my "least evil suburbs" list.  I just see a lot of these elements when I'm up there, but probably not as much in the lowlands that are NKC and more up the bluff on the blighting sections of North Oak.  I think one of my run-ins with violent drivers was around Northtowne (the dealership) and the other closer to Gladstone.

[Thrillcekr]

Woah, there.  Struck a nerve, didn't I?

I'm speaking to people's rudeness on the road while I'm on my bike.  It is purely empirical.  I've had more people try to run me off the road, yell at me to "get on the sidewalk", pull up behind me and honk, etc.  This is the hostility that I'm talking about.  My personal favorites are when a gigantic man tried to pick a fight with me and when a large man told me to stay on the sidewalk in front of his van-load of unkempt kids.  His wife was sporting a Chiefs jersey that was quite flattering.

Perhaps I don't have the perspective because I don't get far outside of the North Oak corridor when I'm up there, but my other observations are based upon my observations as well.  North Oak between Vivion and the bluff is overwhelmingly white, usually overweight, often in pick up trucks, usually smoking, etc.  I'm not trying to pass judgement, I'm just telling you what I see.  Go sit on the side of the road for an hour and you'll see the same stuff go by.

Don't get me wrong, I love NKC.  It is at the top of my "least evil suburbs" list.  I just see a lot of these elements when I'm up there, but probably not as much in the lowlands that are NKC and more up the bluff on the blighting sections of North Oak.  I think one of my run-ins with violent drivers was around Northtowne (the dealership) and the other closer to Gladstone.



I don't doubt that you saw any of that but go down the street to Westport and you'll find that not only goes on but it's more of the rule rather than the exception.  All that stuff you just went on about can be seen on a regular basis anywhere in the metro.  It's definitely not exclusive to that area you speak of nor is it any more common there.

I really can't see how smoking relates to any of that though.  I guess it's all a matter of what a person sees a trashy.  Usually if a person looks in the mirror, they have some sort of habit that others might view as trashy.  Personally, I find drinking and hanging out in bars and clubs kind of unbecoming but I have a lot of people that I call friends who like doing those sorts of things.  Everyone has a vice of some sort usually but that doesn't necessarily make them white trash.  If somebody wearing a Chiefs jersey makes them "trash"  then you just took probably 80% of the metro out in one whack.  I really don't have anything against you but you seem like the kind of person that spends a lot of time finding ways to put yourself above others.  That's called arrogance and that's about as unattractive a quality as one can find in a human being.  It's kind of trashy so feel free to jump down off your high horse and come hang out with all us "trashy" people.  You'll fit right in.

[staubio]

Thrillcekr, you are missing my point.  I'm talking about demographics--and that certain demographics make strong urban areas.

While there are lifestyles with which I agree and those I don't, I don't consider myself  "better" than anyone.  I'm sorry my observations offended you.  Keep in mind that I wasn't judging anyone.  I was only sharing observations.  Please don't  suppose to know that I am arrogant because I shared some experiences I've had in the Northland which I believe to be detremental to progress in the area.

Oh, and 80% of the population does not own a Chiefs jersey.

[Thrillcekr]

Thrillcekr, you are missing my point.  I'm talking about demographics--and that certain demographics make strong urban areas.

While there are lifestyles with which I agree and those I don't, I don't consider myself  "better" than anyone.  I'm sorry my observations offended you.  Keep in mind that I wasn't judging anyone.  I was only sharing observations.  Please don't  suppose to know that I am arrogant because I shared some experiences I've had in the Northland which I believe to be detremental to progress in the area.

Oh, and 80% of the population does not own a Chiefs jersey.

I called it as I saw it.  You're pretty quick to judge based on very limited observations so I did the same to you.  Your response indicates that you didn't like it much.  Don't judge people based on your own criteria and then get upset because somebody calls you arrogant based on your own ideology.  That was done with intent and you responded just as I suspected you would.  Maybe you should think about that. 

I'm still trying to figure out what Chiefs jerseys and cigarette smoking have to do with anything.  However, since you don't believe what I said about the Chiefs jerseys then I suggest you walk into any office building in downtown or midtown on any given Friday during football season.  I know from personal experience providing security for many of those facilities during my younger days that "Red Friday" is pretty huge throughout KC.  The employees not sporting jerseys make up a very small minority on those occassions. Throwing 80% out there was probably a conservative estimate. It's not uncommon to go anywhere in the metro and see plenty of those "trashy" Chiefs jerseys at any given time.  Arrowhead has had one of the highest attendance averages in the league for 20 years and you can bet that the majority of the people buying those tickets aren't in the northland.  The NFL is by far the most popular sport in America and football jerseys are very common anywhere that there is a local team.  If anything, it's one of thing around here where the majority of this community can share a common ground regardless of their values or economic background.

I really don't get any of that demographics stuff you're going on about either.  What about those demographics make them white trash?  I mean, even in the areas where the incomes are lower I don't see refrigerators and car seats on the front porch.  All the yards seem to be neatly manicured.  The "blight" you speak of doesn't really exist unless you consider older ranch homes just like the ones you'll see all over the north part of OP, Merriam, SM and such to be "blight".  You'd probably be more likely to see a weed infested yard down in your own neck of the woods than you would in the area you are referring to.

I think maybe you got a little pissed when somebody told you to get out of the way while you were riding out in the middle of traffic instead of finding someplace with a bike lane to do your riding.  North Oak isn't the place to be doing that because it's an old street and hasn't been upgraded for that sort of traffic yet.  Try going down Barry or someplace where they have bicycle lanes.  Show a little respect for people trying to get their van load of kids to a ball game and you might be surprised at how people extend that same respect to you.  I can believe somebody might have honked their horn at you but the things you speak of about people threatening to kick your ass seems fictional.  I've never seen anything like that and I'm relatively sure I've spent way more time driving in the northland than you have since I've been living up here for several years now.  Have you ever noticed how quickly a club shuts down north of the river if some sort of violence occurs or it starts getting a little rough?  That's because people living in those areas don't much care to be around that sort of aggressive behavior.

Detremental to progress?  Have you not seen any of the statistics for home sales in the last few years?  The northland is the hottest real estate market in KC at the moment so I'd say this "blight" and "white trash" you speak of hasn't deterred anyone from moving to the northland.  Some areas are older and could use some updating and plans are in the works to update them but these aren't dilapidated old buildings by any means.  Again, you are more likely to see areas that are in much more need that sort of attention in your own neighborhood than around "blight" stricken North Oak.

Hell, I don't even know why I'm even bothering to explain any of this to you.  That whole football jersey/white trash analogy is probably the one of the most absurd theories I've seen on here.  Really none of what you said carries much weight.  Usually you post some pretty decent stuff but I gotta call you on this one  man.  That was awful.

[staubio]

I called it as I saw it.  You're pretty quick to judge based on very limited observations so I did the same to you.  Your response indicates that you didn't like it much.  Don't judge people based on your own criteria and then get upset because somebody calls you arrogant based on your own ideology.  That was done with intent and you responded just as I suspected you would.  Maybe you should think about that. 

I'm still trying to figure out what Chiefs jerseys and cigarette smoking have to do with anything.  However, since you don't believe what I said about the Chiefs jerseys then I suggest you walk into any office building in downtown or midtown on any given Friday during football season.  I know from personal experience providing security for many of those facilities during my younger days that "Red Friday" is pretty huge throughout KC.  The employees not sporting jerseys make up a very small minority on those occassions. Throwing 80% out there was probably a conservative estimate. It's not uncommon to go anywhere in the metro and see plenty of those "trashy" Chiefs jerseys at any given time.  Arrowhead has had one of the highest attendance averages in the league for 20 years and you can bet that the majority of the people buying those tickets aren't in the northland.  The NFL is by far the most popular sport in America and football jerseys are very common anywhere that there is a local team.  If anything, it's one of thing around here where the majority of this community can share a common ground regardless of their values or economic background.

I really don't get any of that demographics stuff you're going on about either.  What about those demographics make them white trash?  I mean, even in the areas where the incomes are lower I don't see refrigerators and car seats on the front porch.  All the yards seem to be neatly manicured.  The "blight" you speak of doesn't really exist unless you consider older ranch homes just like the ones you'll see all over the north part of OP, Merriam, SM and such to be "blight".  You'd probably be more likely to see a weed infested yard down in your own neck of the woods than you would in the area you are referring to.

I think maybe you got a little pissed when somebody told you to get out of the way while you were riding out in the middle of traffic instead of finding someplace with a bike lane to do your riding.  North Oak isn't the place to be doing that because it's an old street and hasn't been upgraded for that sort of traffic yet.  Try going down Barry or someplace where they have bicycle lanes.  Show a little respect for people trying to get their van load of kids to a ball game and you might be surprised at how people extend that same respect to you.  I can believe somebody might have honked their horn at you but the things you speak of about people threatening to kick your ass seems fictional.  I've never seen anything like that and I'm relatively sure I've spent way more time driving in the northland than you have since I've been living up here for several years now.  Have you ever noticed how quickly a club shuts down north of the river if some sort of violence occurs or it starts getting a little rough?  That's because people living in those areas don't much care to be around that sort of aggressive behavior.

Detremental to progress?  Have you not seen any of the statistics for home sales in the last few years?  The northland is the hottest real estate market in KC at the moment so I'd say this "blight" and "white trash" you speak of hasn't deterred anyone from moving to the northland.  Some areas are older and could use some updating and plans are in the works to update them but these aren't dilapidated old buildings by any means.  Again, you are more likely to see areas that are in much more need that sort of attention in your own neighborhood than around "blight" stricken North Oak.

Hell, I don't even know why I'm even bothering to explain any of this to you.  That whole football jersey/white trash analogy is probably the one of the most absurd theories I've seen on here.  Really none of what you said carries much weight.  Usually you post some pretty decent stuff but I gotta call you on this one  man.  That was awful.

Okay, one more post and I'll let this go.

1. I never said it was the Chiefs jersey that led me to the impression that people had certain characteristics.  Many elements gave me certain impressions.  I was simply being descriptive.

2.  Please review the law.  Bicycles have every right to the road.  I use my bike for transportation and I don't just ride where there is a bike lane.  I ride on the road that gets me to my destination.  I will take alternative routes if they are available, but between Vivion and the River, North Oak is about the only option.  The guy that yelled at me to "find a sidewalk" was on a residential street (my girlfriend at the time lived up there, so I rode up there fairly often).  He did it just to be an ass, no doubt about it.  He thought he was cute.

3. You don't have to believe that I was threatened, but I wonder what reason you have to think I made it up?  Why are you so militantly in denial that something could go wrong in the Northland?

4. New homes do not equal progress.  I'm talking about developing a sense of place, infilling, creating vibrancy, etc, and making NKC into a great small city.

5. If Chiefs jersey's are irrelevant, why belabor the topic for two paragraphs?  Besides, there are correlations between behaviors and personal characteristics. 
http://www.oralcancerfoundation.org/tob ... obacco.htm

6. I'm sorry if I offended your neighborhood.  I'm talking about a very small stretch here, and I'm probably casting the net too wide. However, my experiences there are real.

[QueSi2Opie]

The Kansas City metro is full of white trash!!!  More so than any other major metropolitan city I have visited.  Olathe, Gardner, Merriam, KCK, Bonner Springs, Independence, Raytown, Gladstone, Sugar Creek, Grandview, etc.  "JERRY, JERRY, JERRY!"

[dangerboy]

The Kansas City metro is full of white trash!!!  More so than any other major metropolitan city I have visited.  Olathe, Gardner, Merriam, KCK, Bonner Springs, Independence, Raytown, Gladstone, Sugar Creek, Grandview, etc.  "JERRY, JERRY, JERRY!"

Have you been to St. Louis?  No comparison.  It's full of  folks that migrated up I-44 from the Ozarks.  South County, St. Charles County, Jefferson County, and the whole Illinois side.

[QueSi2Opie]

Have you been to St. Louis?  No comparison.  It's full of  folks that migrated up I-44 from the Ozarks.  South County, St. Charles County, Jefferson County, and the whole Illinois side.

Aye, I've been to St. Louis many times...even lived in the metro suburbs (near Arnold) for 3 months while attending a state law enforcement academy.  While I agree that they have hillbillies far outside the city (Fenton, Arnold, Wentzville), the natives in the city tend to look far more trendy than us simple Kansas City folk.  Put it this way, it's a lot harder to spot white trash in St. Louis than it is in KC.   

[Thrillcekr]

Now that we are done filling this section up with baseless stereotypes and junk for awhile, I thought I would post something meaningful on this thread that I found.  For those of you who might be interested in 2005 spring report for NKC here it is:

http://www.homespro.com/documents/docs/ ... Report.pdf

[Thrillcekr]

I found a bit more news on the ongoing development of NKC.  These apartments don't look bad.  I like these better than the ones they've already built.  Not that those are bad by any means.

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?BRD= ... =461&rfi=9

[Me]

As a Northtown grad, son of 2 northtown grads and the nephew of 6 more, I have always liked Northtown.  You have to accept it for what it is.  The community is changing as much because it's eldery population is dying/leaving as anything else.  Still a great place to live, but remember that it is primarily an industrial town.  For it's size, it really has very few residents.  It doesn't support much as far as shopping.  The grocery store off Armour closed a while back and was dead before that.  The Bob's IGA at Oak and Briarcliff rd crashed not long after.  The small shops at Armour and Swift are neat.  They all tend to go under fast though.  The town pretty much closes after Happy Hour when everyone drives back home.

I can't believe no one mentioned Chappels when discussing NKC.  Probably the most unique place in town.

As for being yelled at on a bike.  There are plenty of places in the core where I get yelled at on the road in my car. 

[Thrillcekr]

As a Northtown grad, son of 2 northtown grads and the nephew of 6 more, I have always liked Northtown.  You have to accept it for what it is.  The community is changing as much because it's eldery population is dying/leaving as anything else.  Still a great place to live, but remember that it is primarily an industrial town.  For it's size, it really has very few residents.  It doesn't support much as far as shopping.  The grocery store off Armour closed a while back and was dead before that.  The Bob's IGA at Oak and Briarcliff rd crashed not long after.  The small shops at Armour and Swift are neat.  They all tend to go under fast though.  The town pretty much closes after Happy Hour when everyone drives back home.

I can't believe no one mentioned Chappels when discussing NKC.  Probably the most unique place in town.

As for being yelled at on a bike.  There are plenty of places in the core where I get yelled at on the road in my car.   

Yeah, Chappelle's has been mentioned before.  The place is legendary.  Somewhere on one of these threads somebody mentioned Chappelle's making Sports Illustrated.  They are doing things to change the city a bit.  One of the large grain elevators is going to be destroyed and replaced with retail.  They have assembled another 17 acres that they plan to develop also.  They will continue to use their surplus of revenue to acquire properties that serve no productive purpose for the city at the moment and use them to improve the quality of life for the residents.  Cerner and NKC hospital keep getting larger and more jobs are coming with places like FedEx making major announcements.  If the city manages to defeat Time Warner in court it's going to have the best fiber optic network in the metro which will make it even more attractive as a location for businesses in the future.  The casino keeps expanding and pumping more money into the community. 

The recent success on surrounding areas will continue to have a positive effect on NKC as well.  Downtown is booming as far as residential construction and many of those residents will have to rely on communities like NKC for some things that will never be found in downtown like a large grocery store and certain types of retail.  The neighborhoods along streets just to the north of NKC like the ones along N. Holmes are starting to come alive again.  Briarcliff isn't far away and is still growing.  Riverside has big things coming and this will create much more traffic through NKC when it comes to fruition.  The whole riverfront is slowly coming alive and anything located on it is going to boom like you wouldn't believe in the future.  There are so many ingredients that have been added in recent years and some still to come that will make the future of NKC very different from it's past.

[Big Red Storm]

Is it just me, or do those apartments not look urban in the slightest way?  In the article they said they would be using New Urbanism.  Well they look like they are your typical suburban apartment complex.  I'm not too terribly impressed.

[Tosspot]

Is it just me, or do those apartments not look urban in the slightest way?  In the article they said they would be using New Urbanism.  Well they look like they are your typical suburban apartment complex.  I'm not too terribly impressed.

It's not just you, those apartments in the rendering are reminiscent of City Place in Westport or that hoity-toity suburbanesque enclave on the east Plaza. I'll hold off more shrill denunciations until the whole of the project is realized, but worth noting is how the word "urban" has become once again in vogue among marketing vernacular. Hence we have Westport's abominable City Place apartments, which don't even make a half-assed attempt at integrating with the street grid and congealing with the remainder of the built environment, and likewise we see the word "urban" touted left and right in developments like this apparent garden-style construct in the Northland which appears anything but "urban."

[staubio]

I took a bit of a detour today to check out all of Northgate Village.  The section from Burlington does look like pure crap, but it is indeed better closer to Holmes, where there  is a mix of street-fronting houses and townhouses.  I'll give a few points to them for the stuff on that side.  Check it out, it makes up for a little of what they did further west in the development.