Independence Center

Jackson/Cass Suburbs, including South KC
nomadcowatbk
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Re: Independence Center

Post by nomadcowatbk »

GRID wrote:
LCDSI wrote:Here's an article in the KC Star about the foreclosure. Not a good sign. It seems like another enclosed mall in KC might bite the dust.

http://www.kansascity.com/news/business ... 43414.html
Didn't this mall recently add two major tenants (Dicks and H&M)? And isn't is nearly fully leased? I mean typically malls see a several years of vacancy issues and what not before they start to fail. I think the press needs to be careful or they could start to scare people away and actually cause a problem that doesn't really exist today. It sounds like Simon just doesn't want to pay the debt service for this mall anymore and it has little to do with how the mall is actually doing.
there was a shooting at IC, but at least the murder was white, :lol:, was anyone actually murder at Bannister Mall during it's peak?

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Re: Independence Center

Post by nomadcowatbk »

LCDSI wrote:
GRID wrote:
LCDSI wrote:Here's an article in the KC Star about the foreclosure. Not a good sign. It seems like another enclosed mall in KC might bite the dust.

http://www.kansascity.com/news/business ... 43414.html
Didn't this mall recently add two major tenants (Dicks and H&M)? And isn't is nearly fully leased? I mean typically malls see a several years of vacancy issues and what not before they start to fail. I think the press needs to be careful or they could start to scare people away and actually cause a problem that doesn't really exist today. It sounds like Simon just doesn't want to pay the debt service for this mall anymore and it has little to do with how the mall is actually doing.
I hope that's the case. I would think a market our size would be able to sustain two enclosed malls especially since they're on different sides of the metro.
Isn't Zona Rosa just a mall in another form, and same with the Plaza with those filled with the the same chains?

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Re: Independence Center

Post by nomadcowatbk »

GRID wrote:
LCDSI wrote:Here's an article in the KC Star about the foreclosure. Not a good sign. It seems like another enclosed mall in KC might bite the dust.

http://www.kansascity.com/news/business ... 43414.html
Didn't this mall recently add two major tenants (Dicks and H&M)? And isn't is nearly fully leased? I mean typically malls see a several years of vacancy issues and what not before they start to fail. I think the press needs to be careful or they could start to scare people away and actually cause a problem that doesn't really exist today. It sounds like Simon just doesn't want to pay the debt service for this mall anymore and it has little to do with how the mall is actually doing.
when did they the loan? was it before or after Amazon came along? isn't $200 mil to big for any mall when they have to compete with them nowaways?

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Re: Independence Center

Post by flyingember »

The real question is was this loan made before the new shopping centers around it opened?

There's easily 3x as much retail in that part of town as there was in 2000 and Independence didn't exactly grow at the same time.

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Re: Independence Center

Post by nomadcowatbk »

flyingember wrote:The real question is was this loan made before the new shopping centers around it opened?

There's easily 3x as much retail in that part of town as there was in 2000 and Independence didn't exactly grow at the same time.
and Noland Road continues to empty, Toys R Us is next

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Re: Independence Center

Post by empires228 »

GRID wrote:
LCDSI wrote:Here's an article in the KC Star about the foreclosure. Not a good sign. It seems like another enclosed mall in KC might bite the dust.

http://www.kansascity.com/news/business ... 43414.html
Didn't this mall recently add two major tenants (Dicks and H&M)? And isn't is nearly fully leased? I mean typically malls see a several years of vacancy issues and what not before they start to fail. I think the press needs to be careful or they could start to scare people away and actually cause a problem that doesn't really exist today. It sounds like Simon just doesn't want to pay the debt service for this mall anymore and it has little to do with how the mall is actually doing.
Dicks took over part of Sears, and the mall doesn't have a website at the moment since Simon is officially dumping it, but it hasn't been fully leased for years. Town Center Plaza is the only mall in KC that has come close to that since before the recession. Up until recently, Oak Park was only populated by vacant spots for chains that no longer exist like Wet Seal, The Limited, Radio Shack, and The Foundry. Independence Center and Zona Rosa had been losing tenants still in the metro.
nomadcowatbk wrote:
flyingember wrote:The real question is was this loan made before the new shopping centers around it opened?

There's easily 3x as much retail in that part of town as there was in 2000 and Independence didn't exactly grow at the same time.
and Noland Road continues to empty, Toys R Us is next
Noland Road was sadly tied to the health of Blue Ridge Mall just like how the strip malls around 95th and Metcalf were tied to Metcalf South and the half dead centers across from Metro North were to Metro North (MD Management owned all of the big box centers up there until fairly recently). All three areas started to lose their tenants to new locations near IC, OPM, and ZR starting in the early 2000's. Red Lobster and Olive Garden were the strange holdouts in all locations, which is strange because they bailed on Bannister ASAP. Digging though the Corbin Park thread, several restaurants and big box stores had been committed to jumping from 119th to 135th back when the project was still going to be a hybrid enclosed-outdoor mall anchored by Dillard's and an unnamed upscale department store.

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Re: Independence Center

Post by ztonyg »

Looks like it's been sold to Pacific Capital Retail Partners: http://www.kansascity.com/news/business ... 12884.html

A listing of their other properties is on their website:

https://pacificretail.com

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Re: Independence Center

Post by empires228 »

ztonyg wrote:Looks like it's been sold to Pacific Capital Retail Partners: http://www.kansascity.com/news/business ... 12884.html

A listing of their other properties is on their website:

https://pacificretail.com

That's scary. They own a dead mall in the NOLA metro that was ran into the ground by Simon, they own a failing mall in metro Salt Lake City, and a declining mall in New York that Simon recently dumped as well. They do own two successful malls as well, though they're relying on failing stores like Sears, Carson's, and Barnes & Noble to attract shoppers to those properties.

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Re: Independence Center

Post by GRID »

empires228 wrote:
ztonyg wrote:Looks like it's been sold to Pacific Capital Retail Partners: http://www.kansascity.com/news/business ... 12884.html

A listing of their other properties is on their website:

https://pacificretail.com

That's scary. They own a dead mall in the NOLA metro that was ran into the ground by Simon, they own a failing mall in metro Salt Lake City, and a declining mall in New York that Simon recently dumped as well. They do own two successful malls as well, though they're relying on failing stores like Sears, Carson's, and Barnes & Noble to attract shoppers to those properties.
Same thing can be said about the properties Simon still has. Many are probably in some state of going downhill, many are just sort of hanging on, and some are still thriving. Simon just had to unload Indep Center to get out from under that loan. I'm still not convinced it means the mall is "failing".

Much brick and mortar retail is struggling now as they figure out how to survive along side amazon etc. Indep Center may not make it another ten years, but it will likely be because of it losing its anchor tenants than the mall itself failing. They have a very strong Sears, a new Dicks, a new H&M and I'm not sure how the Dillards and Maycs are doing there. It's a modest middle-uppermiddle class mall and it's a nice mall and one of largest shopping centers serving a population base of well over a half million people. If it's run well, I really don't see any reason why it wouldn't remain relatively vibrant for many more years to come. From all my travels, it seems like all metro areas still have a few very popular regional indoor malls. JoCo is overbuilt, but Oak Park still has a foothold on several hundred thousand people inside of 435. I just don't see why KC couldn't continue to support 2 major regional malls. Indoor malls will eventually return anyway. I would give it another ten years and they will be going up again replacing all the strip malls and lifestyle centers that have gone up recently. Retail is always changing and often recycling old ideas. I also don't think online shopping is going to totally wipe out retail. There will always be a desire to shop at retail locations. Some online only stores are actually coming back to retail already.
Last edited by GRID on Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Independence Center

Post by mgsports »

They are going to get new places to come to it. Other parts of Independence are doing better then that part of Noland Road. Jack in the Box coming soon.
Corbin Park at one time was to get Best Buy,Barnes and Noble,Office Depot and so on but has got Scheels,Von Maur and others so far.

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Re: Independence Center

Post by empires228 »

GRID wrote:
empires228 wrote:
ztonyg wrote:Looks like it's been sold to Pacific Capital Retail Partners: http://www.kansascity.com/news/business ... 12884.html

A listing of their other properties is on their website:

https://pacificretail.com

That's scary. They own a dead mall in the NOLA metro that was ran into the ground by Simon, they own a failing mall in metro Salt Lake City, and a declining mall in New York that Simon recently dumped as well. They do own two successful malls as well, though they're relying on failing stores like Sears, Carson's, and Barnes & Noble to attract shoppers to those properties.
Same thing can be said about the properties Simon still has. Many are probably in some state of going downhill, many are just sort of hanging on, and some are still thriving. Simon just had to unload Indep Center to get out from under that loan. I'm still not convinced it means the mall is "failing".

Much brick and mortar retail is struggling now as they figure out how to survive along side amazon etc. Indep Center may not make it another ten years, but it will likely be because of it losing its anchor tenants than the mall itself failing. They have a very strong Sears, a new Dicks, a new H&M and I'm not sure how the Dillards and Maycs are doing there. It's a modest middle-uppermiddle class mall and it's a nice mall and one of largest shopping centers serving a population base of well over a half million people. If it's run well, I really don't see any reason why it wouldn't remain relatively vibrant for many more years to come. From all my travels, it seems like all metro areas still have a few very popular regional indoor malls. JoCo is overbuilt, but Oak Park still has a foothold on several hundred thousand people inside of 435. I just don't see why KC couldn't continue to support 2 major regional malls. Indoor malls will eventually return anyway. I would give it another ten years and they will be going up again replacing all the strip malls and lifestyle centers that have gone up recently. Retail is always changing and often recycling old ideas. I also don't think online shopping is going to totally wipe out retail. There will always be a desire to shop at retail locations. Some online only stores are actually coming back to retail already.
Except Simon has a history of doing this. They saddle their weak malls with debt, funnel the loan money into their top malls like the King of Prussia in Pennsylvania, and then walk away from the weak properties. Most of the malls that they dumped into Washington Prime (of which the lack of Independence Center in that transaction was a huge surprise to many) started hemorrhaging tenants within a year as Simon knew lmajor leases weren't going to be renewed and strategically dumped these properties. Simon was slimy in its business dealings with four of its five malls in Kansas. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. There aren't many tenants to throw in IC because everything in KC that fits the demographics for that area is already in that area or left the mall over the past decade. The mall was doomed the minute Liberty started building duplicate big box tenants and Macy's and JCPenney built in Lee's Summit. The malls small revival several years back came because Bannister, Antioch, and Blue Ridge died and left it with little competition for several years.

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Re: Independence Center

Post by ztonyg »

The Claires at Independence Center made it on their initial bankruptcy store closing list.

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Re: Independence Center

Post by empires228 »

https://www.examiner.net/news/20190313/ ... ands-again

So the mall changed owners again very quietly. The company that was going to buy it decided against it because the mall is too far from their other properties. Now it's owned by the firm that bought up the failing mall in Salina, KS.

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Re: Independence Center

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Re: Independence Center

Post by empires228 »

Macy’s is reportedly closing.

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Re: Independence Center

Post by beermestrength »

empires228 wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:53 am
Macy’s is reportedly closing.
If they don't get their gang problem under control the entire mall will be closing.

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Re: Independence Center

Post by empires228 »

beermestrength wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:15 pm
empires228 wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:53 am
Macy’s is reportedly closing.
If they don't get their gang problem under control the entire mall will be closing.
I highly expect the metros only traditional mall to be Oak Park in the very near future. I've been calling out the warning signs at IC since before Simon defaulted on the mall, but people on FB and City Data were skeptical. Now all of the malls obvious issues from the last decade are compounding all at once. It's a nice property with amazing visibility, but that's about it. Simon meddled with the layout too much and made it just another boring mall in the 90s renovation, and they really lost out when JCP built their store a few blocks away rather than at the mall itself. If they only wanted to build a smaller single level store, Simon could have made it double stacked store with Target, it's not that uncommon to see anchors set up like that at other malls. ABQ had that Gordmans/Dick's anchor for several years before Gordmans went under. Simon never tried too hard to combat the minor crime issues the mall had despite the police having offices in the mall. They're definitely not a super visible presence in the center, if they're even still a tenant.

I was going though the WebArchives and between about 2008 and now the mall has lost:
Abercrombie & Fitch
Aerie
Aldo Shoes
Applebee's
As Seen on T.V.
B Dalton Bookseller
CJ Banks
Charlotte Russe
Chico's
Christopher & Banks
Borders Express/Waldenbooks
Club Libby Lu
Coach
Coldwater Creek
Dairy Queen
dELIA*s
The Disney Store
Francesca's Boutique
Gamestop
Gap
Garage
Gymboree
Hobby Haven
Hallmark
Hannoush Jewelers
Hollister Co.
J. Jill
Journey's Kids
Justice
Kay Bee Toys
Lane Bryant
Macy's
Men's Wearhouse
Merle Norman Cosmetics
Motherhood Maternity
New York & Company
Orange Julius
Payless ShoeSource
RadioShack
Sam Goody
Samuel's Jewelers
Sears
Sears Portrait Studio (They oddly had actual storefronts at Metro North and IC)
Sephora
Shi by Journey's
Starbucks
Taco Bell
Things Remembered
The Walking Company
Vanity
Wet Seal
Wilson's Leather
Wolf Camera
Yankee Candle
Zales Jewelers

Only 15 of those are companies that are now defunct. Old Navy will likely leave soon as they've been jumping the ship from those old behemoth mall stores to smaller strip mall stores for the past 5 years now. They've already moved Topeka and are prepping to move Salina and Wichita to new smaller stores off-mall. Out of the surviving national tenants, the ones with the most stable footing are Panda Express, Shoe Department, Dillard's, American Eagle, Aeropostale, Bath & Body Works, and PacSun. Victoria's Secret/Pink, Gloria Jean's, Build-a-Bear, H&M, XXI, and Foot Locker, who occupies at least five spaces between House of Hoops, Foot Locker, Kids Foot Locker, Footaction USA, and Champs Sports, are all on pretty shaky ground, as is Kirkland's. A lot of these chains closing would spell bad news for Oak Park, Summit Fair, Town Center, and Zona Rosa as well, some of them have already left Summit Fair and Zona Rosa.

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Re: Independence Center

Post by DaveKCMO »

I don't think I've ever seen a curfew start at 3pm (and they still had an issue yesterday). Sounds pretty serious.

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Re: Independence Center

Post by mgsports »

Dillards will stay.

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Re: Independence Center

Post by empires228 »

DaveKCMO wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:49 pm
I don't think I've ever seen a curfew start at 3pm (and they still had an issue yesterday). Sounds pretty serious.
Almost all of the malls in St. Louis have had curfews like this since Ferguson. The Galleria specifically has a 3pm cutoff, but I believe Mid Rivers and West County are a little later.
mgsports wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:15 am
Dillards will stay.
For how long, though? Bannister is the only mall in KC that they waited until it was mostly dead to close up shop.

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