18th and Vine

Discuss items in the urban core outside of Downtown as described above. Everything in the core including the east side (18th & Vine area), Plaza, Westport, Brookside, Valentine, Waldo, 39th street, & the entire midtown area.
alejandro46
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Re: 18th and Vine

Post by alejandro46 »

One Nine Vine Project

Collison has some renders:

1901 Vine
80 apartments, 17,500 square-feet of ground floor retail space and a 98-space garage. Seriously, 98 spaces? Smh.

https://cityscenekc.com/developers-purs ... 18th-vine/

Image

Image

Second Project - McCormack Baron plan. 80- to 100 apartments and 20,000 square-feet of retail between The Paseo and Vine from 18th and 19th streets. Same dev as the Monarch apartment development at 1851 Paseo and appears to be same design scheme.
Last edited by alejandro46 on Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 18th and Vine

Post by flyingember »

98 spaces would be more than one space per bedroom just five years ago. They're not providing garage space for guests.

They don't want to spend the money on something they can't recoup the cost from

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Re: 18th and Vine

Post by Chris Stritzel »

Relevant to the new project, as well as other things within the general area...

Image

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Re: 18th and Vine

Post by TheLastGentleman »

Really bleak looking

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Re: 18th and Vine

Post by Chris Stritzel »

TheLastGentleman wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:19 pm
Really bleak looking
Looks like a tan version of the Waldo Icehouse complex

Image

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Re: 18th and Vine

Post by alejandro46 »

Chris Stritzel wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:23 pm
TheLastGentleman wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:19 pm
Really bleak looking
Looks like a tan version of the Waldo Icehouse complex
I know it's just an initial rendering, but overall I wish devs would take better steps to make 'workforce housing' still attractive. The Monarch Apartments down there are pretty fugly too. No need to keep the ugly theme going.

Although a little more expensive, I think the Troost Beacon Hill corridor is the kind of design we need more of. The ice house project is also a similarly modern and attractive urban infill project.

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Re: 18th and Vine

Post by dukuboy1 »

I agree this rendering is not very attractive at all. It looks like "up scale lame" IMO. Considering some of the architectural restore that have been done in the area I would think a unique modern take inspired by 1930's & 40 Art Deco would play well with the history of the area and the heyday if you will.

My biggest fear for this project, like some of the other awesome development in the area (Jazz & NLBA Museums, Urban Youth Baseball Academy, etc.) it will be on an island with no connection to the development boom of the Crossroads to the West and even Troost corridor that starts around Hospital Hill. There is Not much North to Truman Rd. and going East beyond Woodland from the district there is nothing. Really need to establish the connection to the West for these things to work. I would love to see a trolley line going East-West from West side of Crossroads to 18th & Vine. Sort of like what they did in the Delmar Loop in STL. Obviously Wash U being in that area is a huge boost but that area seemed to have a similar type of history that experienced a transformation of development.

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Re: 18th and Vine

Post by normalthings »

dukuboy1 wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:57 am
I agree this rendering is not very attractive at all. It looks like "up scale lame" IMO. Considering some of the architectural restore that have been done in the area I would think a unique modern take inspired by 1930's & 40 Art Deco would play well with the history of the area and the heyday if you will.

My biggest fear for this project, like some of the other awesome development in the area (Jazz & NLBA Museums, Urban Youth Baseball Academy, etc.) it will be on an island with no connection to the development boom of the Crossroads to the West and even Troost corridor that starts around Hospital Hill. There is Not much North to Truman Rd. and going East beyond Woodland from the district there is nothing. Really need to establish the connection to the West for these things to work. I would love to see a trolley line going East-West from West side of Crossroads to 18th & Vine. Sort of like what they did in the Delmar Loop in STL. Obviously Wash U being in that area is a huge boost but that area seemed to have a similar type of history that experienced a transformation of development.
The Loop Trolley closed due to poor ridership (less than avg. 100 daily riders during prime summer months). The failure of the federally funded trolley will have long term negative impacts on other, real, transit projects in their region. If STL couldn't make it work next to a t-20 university and 2 top tourist destinations, I have doubts KC would either.

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Re: 18th and Vine

Post by Riverite »

normalthings wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:25 pm
dukuboy1 wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:57 am
I agree this rendering is not very attractive at all. It looks like "up scale lame" IMO. Considering some of the architectural restore that have been done in the area I would think a unique modern take inspired by 1930's & 40 Art Deco would play well with the history of the area and the heyday if you will.

My biggest fear for this project, like some of the other awesome development in the area (Jazz & NLBA Museums, Urban Youth Baseball Academy, etc.) it will be on an island with no connection to the development boom of the Crossroads to the West and even Troost corridor that starts around Hospital Hill. There is Not much North to Truman Rd. and going East beyond Woodland from the district there is nothing. Really need to establish the connection to the West for these things to work. I would love to see a trolley line going East-West from West side of Crossroads to 18th & Vine. Sort of like what they did in the Delmar Loop in STL. Obviously Wash U being in that area is a huge boost but that area seemed to have a similar type of history that experienced a transformation of development.
The Loop Trolley closed due to poor ridership (less than avg. 100 daily riders during prime summer months). The failure of the federally funded trolley will have long term negative impacts on other, real, transit projects in their region. If STL couldn't make it work next to a t-20 university and 2 top tourist destinations, I have doubts KC would either.
Make it free

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Re: 18th and Vine

Post by flyingember »

Riverite wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:49 pm
normalthings wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:25 pm

The Loop Trolley closed due to poor ridership (less than avg. 100 daily riders during prime summer months). The failure of the federally funded trolley will have long term negative impacts on other, real, transit projects in their region. If STL couldn't make it work next to a t-20 university and 2 top tourist destinations, I have doubts KC would either.
Make it free
they did this summer and shut it back down.
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/met ... 30436.html

The problem was you needed to get on Metrolink, transfer at Forest Park to a slower mode or transfer to the other line and transfer at Delmar. When it was not that difficult to walk from the campus on the ped bridge and walk back without paying for two tickets.

And then the hours sucked.

Part of last year:
noon to 6 p.m. Thursday and Sunday, and noon to 11 p.m. Friday and Saturday

Commuters are out.
You can't get to college via it with how many classes are MWF or TH.
It isn't even open long enough to serve entertainment options. 11pm is great for a restaurant but not for a bar or club

They never introduced fare cards, every dat you have to buy a ticket to ride. I paid to have a physcial fare card for a five day trip in Atlanta, that's how much daily tickets are stupid.
Last edited by flyingember on Thu Oct 01, 2020 2:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 18th and Vine

Post by Riverite »

Right, but making it free from the beginning, and it connecting to the other streetcar will drive up ridership

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Re: 18th and Vine

Post by Riverite »

Also the loop trolley is incredibly slow, right

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Re: 18th and Vine

Post by flyingember »

Riverite wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:47 pm
Also the loop trolley is incredibly slow, right
It's mostly single track. If you're ahead have to wait at key points. Sure, the KC Streetcar sometimes bunches up, but the trains behind don't all have to stop and wait on a train to pass them.

KC doesn't need a loop trolley to 18th and Vine.
It needs a line of the current streetcar system that goes to 18th and Vine and swings north and a bunch of bus lines terminate at it.

There's no point on spending hypothetical money on anything less than doing it right. At the end of the day, the only practical difference between the systems would be the type of train

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Re: 18th and Vine

Post by alejandro46 »

flyingember wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:53 pm
Riverite wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:47 pm
Also the loop trolley is incredibly slow, right
It needs a line of the current streetcar system that goes to 18th and Vine and swings north and a bunch of bus lines terminate at it.
100%. A trolley is not right for KC, in any sense of the word. We have a successful streetcar system. For additional rail, we should leverage scale and established service providers to drive costs down. But right now, we should focus on upgrading existing infrastructure (sidewalks, bike lanes) and development connecting Xroads and 18V that is currently extremely un-appealing and running under a highway.

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Re: 18th and Vine

Post by flyingember »

alejandro46 wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 2:49 pm
flyingember wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:53 pm
Riverite wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:47 pm
Also the loop trolley is incredibly slow, right
It needs a line of the current streetcar system that goes to 18th and Vine and swings north and a bunch of bus lines terminate at it.
100%. A trolley is not right for KC, in any sense of the word. We have a successful streetcar system. For additional rail, we should leverage scale and established service providers to drive costs down. But right now, we should focus on upgrading existing infrastructure (sidewalks, bike lanes) and development connecting Xroads and 18V that is currently extremely un-appealing and running under a highway.
Agreed. 18th and Vine's biggest problem is it's isolated to the west. So anything that better connects it to other areas is a great step.

Then shift north into Paseo West. With these two areas connected shifting east becomes ever more possible. Focusing on connectivity to Prospect Max seems like it provides value to gain for existing residents but not if there's a giant gap between The Paseo and 71 north of 25th

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Re: 18th and Vine

Post by dukuboy1 »

The point of my comment was to seek something unique to connect the area to rest of crossroads. I was playing with “fun money” if you will. I realize as of today there is no reason to fund such an adventure especially given the great success of current street car & the expansion South to UMKC. I’m just thinking of ideas to connect that area to the West. Crossroads is slowly creeping east, and yes Highway poses a barrier, as it does to the North and train tracks to part of the south. All can be worked around but anything they do in 18th vine area needs to connect to the West for the long term viability & spur in fill development north & south, then keep spreading east

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Re: 18th and Vine

Post by normalthings »

dukuboy1 wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:18 am
The point of my comment was to seek something unique to connect the area to rest of crossroads. I was playing with “fun money” if you will. I realize as of today there is no reason to fund such an adventure especially given the great success of current street car & the expansion South to UMKC. I’m just thinking of ideas to connect that area to the West. Crossroads is slowly creeping east, and yes Highway poses a barrier, as it does to the North and train tracks to part of the south. All can be worked around but anything they do in 18th vine area needs to connect to the West for the long term viability & spur in fill development north & south, then keep spreading east
The innovation district is the best, realistic bet.

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Re: 18th and Vine

Post by flyingember »

normalthings wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:19 am
dukuboy1 wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:18 am
The point of my comment was to seek something unique to connect the area to rest of crossroads. I was playing with “fun money” if you will. I realize as of today there is no reason to fund such an adventure especially given the great success of current street car & the expansion South to UMKC. I’m just thinking of ideas to connect that area to the West. Crossroads is slowly creeping east, and yes Highway poses a barrier, as it does to the North and train tracks to part of the south. All can be worked around but anything they do in 18th vine area needs to connect to the West for the long term viability & spur in fill development north & south, then keep spreading east
The innovation district is the best, realistic bet.
We said the same thing about The East Village.

The Innovation District was announced two years ago, money was pulled from it in the 2020 budget just as they were forming a board. It took someone doing a study to decide to form a board at at. A committee was just formed in July. None of the committee members own property in the district, they're all academics.

A successful project does not lose funding right as it starts doing anything.

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Re: 18th and Vine

Post by dukuboy1 »

I think with the East Village, we saw the Metro Hub transportation center thing, but otherwise whomever owns the land over there has decided to sit on it, regardless of the dollars put forth. I think the idea of the down town stadium going there had always been smoldering, allowing for the land owners to sit & see what happens. The taxes they paid on vacant lots, and parking lots, was pennies. Now the downtown stadium appears to be a reality with enough private dollars to make it happen without major, city, county, or state incentives. I'm sure they will get some & or a sweet deal of sorts, but tax payers won't be impacted and it definitely will not go to a vote like the last round. So the East Village is playing the long game waiting to sell once a major tenant comes in and they can really reap the profits.

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Re: 18th and Vine

Post by dukuboy1 »

As for 18th & Vine, I just hope they can build on the Crossroads momentum east and tap into that. Honestly it will be great for all of KC that the areas in and around down town continue to prosper. Let's continue to let those successes radiate out from the middle, which is downtown, and bring areas left behind back to their prominence

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