Poll: Does the Plaza need a drastic change, some change or on the right path?

Discuss items in the urban core outside of Downtown as described above. Everything in the core including the east side (18th & Vine area), Northeast, Plaza, Westport, Brookside, Valentine, Waldo, 39th street, & the entire midtown area.

Does the Plaza need a drastic change or on the right path?

Keep it as is - almost entirely as a shopping/restaurant mall district.
9
10%
Mix things up just a little more such as adding neighborhood amenities, broader nightlife, lighter eats.
37
42%
In addition to above, needs a bit less mall focus, pedestrian only street, residential within.
35
40%
Don't care.
6
7%
Other
1
1%
 
Total votes: 88

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Anthony_Hugo98
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Re: Poll: Does the Plaza need a drastic change, some change or on the right path?

Post by Anthony_Hugo98 »

DaveKCMO wrote: Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:06 pm Plaza ownership is convinced the streetcar will just consume all of their free parking and provide no benefit. Seriously.
They’ve got to be kidding, right Dave? I mean there’s literally a huge amount of evidence to point to the contrary in the starter line. The economic boom that the SC will have with that much more foot traffic is something Nd they’d literally NEVER be able to get even if you doubled the garage space there.
earthling
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Re: Poll: Does the Plaza need a drastic change, some change or on the right path?

Post by earthling »

There probably will be some that park on Plaza for all day weekend visit across urban corridor but there will also be many living along line and/or parking along line visiting Plaza. As well as attract many from the downtown hotel boom via streetcar.

They need to think about integration and collaboration with rest of city, not isolation.
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ToDactivist
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Re: Poll: Does the Plaza need a drastic change, some change or on the right path?

Post by ToDactivist »

Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:09 am
DaveKCMO wrote: Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:06 pm Plaza ownership is convinced the streetcar will just consume all of their free parking and provide no benefit. Seriously.
They’ve got to be kidding, right Dave? I mean there’s literally a huge amount of evidence to point to the contrary in the starter line. The economic boom that the SC will have with that much more foot traffic is something Nd they’d literally NEVER be able to get even if you doubled the garage space there.
Maybe true as this happened on my lot on Delaware. Thus why now a 3hr paid lot. Sad but necessary. Although my concern is different in that I dont see people walking across 2 high velocity intersections to get on/off the streetcar and even then hoofing it only to the eastern side only of the plaza. thought it should have been re-directed down Nichols at Westport. My opinion only.
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Re: Poll: Does the Plaza need a drastic change, some change or on the right path?

Post by earthling »

Didn't some Plaza garages receive incentives?
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Re: Poll: Does the Plaza need a drastic change, some change or on the right path?

Post by empires228 »

normalthings wrote: Wed Dec 25, 2019 4:26 pm
DaveKCMO wrote: Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:06 pm
earthling wrote: Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:20 am If free bus turns out to be a permanent metro wide service, the Plaza could probably lose some parking - as well as with free streetcar going by in 5 years or so. But for the most part, there would need to be a good amount of garage space for what is a regional draw and there's quite a bit.
Plaza ownership is convinced the streetcar will just consume all of their free parking and provide no benefit. Seriously.
Guess I will no longer be spending money there.
At the rate stuff has been closing and how dead it was when I was last down there on a Saturday three weeks before Christmas I don't think you'd be alone. Also their fear would be confirmed in me because that was literally my plan for the street car...
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Re: Poll: Does the Plaza need a drastic change, some change or on the right path?

Post by Midtownkid »

Keep the plaza's core preserved. Make sure new storefronts complement the style of the existing buildings. Really capitalize on what the Plaza already has going for it. It really is very beautiful and unique. Why destroy that for a few more residents!? The small scale is part of what makes it great.

The existing parking garages are well designed and carefully designed to keep cars hidden from view. No need to rebuild them.

Keep the classic cup building and Starbucks/Mac buildings, but tear out the old garage in between. Replace garage with a new building that fits in seamlessly with the plaza. I've got some great design ideas for this...think I posted them here a few years ago. First floor would be restaurants with outdoor courtyard seating. Upper floors (3-4 story building) would be very exclusive condos or apartments. 3 underground levels of parking.

Restore the old Plaza Theater. Turn it into a live theater. Bring more cultural uses to the Plaza. A reason to come besides shopping/eating.
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Re: Poll: Does the Plaza need a drastic change, some change or on the right path?

Post by earthling »

^Some good points, good ideas and can appreciate the sentiment. However to "keep Plaza's core preserved" isn't possible as it has had surface lots in its early years and has always transformed over decades. It has always adapted with the times with only a few debatable missteps. I think it's possible to continue the transformation keeping the 'Plaza aesthetic' intact, such as adding residential on top of existing garages that complement Plaza architecture. Adding a pedestrian only street also would not destroy the Plaza aesthetic, would improve on it if properly pulled off. The retail landscape has probably changed forever due to online shopping. The Plaza must adapt to that as well. A true urbane mixed-use direction would keep it humming. Keeping it as a mall will not.
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Re: Poll: Does the Plaza need a drastic change, some change or on the right path?

Post by TheLastGentleman »

Spanish Revival doesn't have to be limited to only a few stories. The trick is giving the structure an interesting roofline, with towers and such.

Mission Inn, Riverside, California. Constructed between 1902-1932. To me this looks perfectly in-line with the Plaza

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moderne
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Re: Poll: Does the Plaza need a drastic change, some change or on the right path?

Post by moderne »

It was built in the same time period as most of the Plaza and even San Simeon. Given the horrible remuddle of Halls bldng and the bland Nordstroms going up I doubt the present owners care to put the cost and effort to build so grandly. Anything new built in the Plaza core would be like the Balcony Bldng Polsinelli fiasco.
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Eon Blue
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Re: Poll: Does the Plaza need a drastic change, some change or on the right path?

Post by Eon Blue »

The Plaza was limited to a few stories because it was created as an anti-city, wholly-controlled and curated environment by Nichols. I suspect a big reason the buildings face the streets without large surface lots is because people were still accustomed to traditional urban forms.

I'd like to see some changes too, but I think this energy could be better spent elsewhere in the city.
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Re: Poll: Does the Plaza need a drastic change, some change or on the right path?

Post by earthling »

KC has a tiny amount of true full circle urban neighborhood living compared to other older cities and the Plaza is very close to getting there. Is worth the effort to push towards that, as well as other parts of city. With the changing retail landscape, is time to encourage the Plaza owners away from a mall mentality towards even more mixed use (including residential mix).

The detail above though probably overkill. Something modern simple with Spanish Moorish touches that complement Plaza would be good enough.

I could understand though that some invested downtown wouldn't encourage it.
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Eon Blue
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Re: Poll: Does the Plaza need a drastic change, some change or on the right path?

Post by Eon Blue »

There are many fallow areas outside the plaza proper that could add neighborhood amenities for that part of the city without riling up the #SaveOurPlaza crowd. I'm all for urban redevelopment anywhere within small-c Kansas City, but we have enough of a hill to climb without poking that hornet nest.
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Re: Poll: Does the Plaza need a drastic change, some change or on the right path?

Post by earthling »

The #SaveOurPlaza crowd need to understand that retail has changed and it can't stay mostly as a mall anymore. And it actually had more neighborhood amenities in past.
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TheLastGentleman
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Re: Poll: Does the Plaza need a drastic change, some change or on the right path?

Post by TheLastGentleman »

The elaborate architecture would be reserved for a strictly defined part of the plaza. A “spanish quarter” as someone described earlier. Everything surrounding that specific area could be in whatever style
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Re: Poll: Does the Plaza need a drastic change, some change or on the right path?

Post by moderne »

As recently as 1989 it had a drug store, a grocery story(with liquor dept), a dept store(don't remember if it was still Macy's or Dillards had taken it over). It was before coffee was big, but I would go to the cinnamon roll store for coffee. I lived on 46 Terrace where the empty lots now are. My apartment was in the building right in front of the remnant of fountain in the retaining wall. One bedroom with sunporch, view of west half of plaza for $420.00. Even with new things like Saks the Plaza still functioned as a neighborhood center as well as the locale for high end retail.
As for "Save Our Plaza": when I lived there a college chum from Europe stayed a week. Nearly every morning when I woke, he would be in the sunroom
and would remark how it reminded him of home. Years later, when I told him how that entire street had vanished he said in Europe it would have not happened/could have not happened.
Last edited by moderne on Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
kenrbnj
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Re: Poll: Does the Plaza need a drastic change, some change or on the right path?

Post by kenrbnj »

earthling wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:18 pm The #SaveOurPlaza crowd need to understand that retail has changed and it can't stay mostly as a mall anymore. And it actually had more neighborhood amenities in past.
I'm afraid that might be right. Likely, Plaza will have a few benchmark retail venues and the balance will become F&B venues. As the trend corrects to a balance to back to brick-and-mortar retail (and it will); the Plaza will adapt.
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Re: Poll: Does the Plaza need a drastic change, some change or on the right path?

Post by Riverite »

Brick and mortar isn’t coming back in the same way, if you want to focus on food or niche stores, then yes that will survive. However, people will increasingly buy online, unless there is a unique experience or it is dense enough to make it more convenient. The time of regional malls or shopping areas that are generalized is over.

If it isn’t necessary or niche or more convenient people won’t do it in person. The plaza has to evolve.
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Re: Poll: Does the Plaza need a drastic change, some change or on the right path?

Post by beautyfromashes »

I think the problem is that neighborhood amenity rents are less than others. We need someone to explain to the Plaza owner that the mix, even though requiring dropping rents on some space, will bring more everyday activity back to the Plaza. This increased traffic will then make for a healthier overall return. Drop your rent prices to bring in a grocery store, pharmacy and home goods store. It will keep you from losing your high rent restaurants like Hogshead and the Oliver.
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Re: Poll: Does the Plaza need a drastic change, some change or on the right path?

Post by Riverite »

Exactly, this is the problem sometime when new owners buy. They raise rents because they spent a lot of money buying it and want a return, but don’t fundamentally improve what they’ve bought. Then they miss their targets, because those were based off the previous rents
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Re: Poll: Does the Plaza need a drastic change, some change or on the right path?

Post by beautyfromashes »

Riverite wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:09 pm Exactly, this is the problem sometime when new owners buy. They raise rents because they spent a lot of money buying it and want a return, but don’t fundamentally improve what they’ve bought. Then they miss their targets, because those were based off the previous rents
Yeah, the problem is the sale from one owner to the next is, “We’ve been getting X$/ft2! If you get that same rate across the whole district it will be worth (insert huge $ price).”
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