KCRag Forum

I agree empires228 i think the people in south johnson county don't feel compelled to drive to the plaza anymore and they can get a majority of the items online. Either way, it's just depressing to see what's happened to the plaza. I really hope that they turn it around.

LCDSI wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:48 am I agree empires228 i think the people in south johnson county don't feel compelled to drive to the plaza anymore and they can get a majority of the items online. Either way, it's just depressing to see what's happened to the plaza. I really hope that they turn it around.

If you go out and ask the suburbanites you'll find that many will plainly state a desire to stay away from violent, teenage mobs. Point blank.

THAT fear is your problem. And THAT fear isn't entirely unfounded given what's transpired over the past 15 years.

im2kull wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:21 pm

LCDSI wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:48 am I agree empires228 i think the people in south johnson county don't feel compelled to drive to the plaza anymore and they can get a majority of the items online. Either way, it's just depressing to see what's happened to the plaza. I really hope that they turn it around.

If you go out and ask the suburbanites you'll find that many will plainly state a desire to stay away from violent, teenage mobs. Point blank.

THAT fear is your problem. And THAT fear isn't entirely unfounded given what's transpired over the past 15 years.

You're making assumptions without data. If you actually asked people, how did you reduce selection bias by going outside your social circle?

I was on the plaza last weekend the day after it snowed it there were people out everywhere. I didn't see any minorities let alone violent teenage mobs.

Those "violent teenage mobs" were the children of said suburbanites.

Same posts 221 pages and years later about the plaza dying.

The Plaza had its share of crime in 80s and 90s (significant open daylight muggings and car jackings that hit news regularly, back when much higher % were glued to local TV news). Crime perception or reality is not the primary issue with The Plaza.

It's the new owner not adapting to the times and struggling themselves now with nearly all of their holdings. Just like KC Star's parent struggling to adapt to a new era. They need to sell Plaza to someone who understands and can adapt Plaza to much broader mixed use, not another mall owner stuck in last century.

im2kull wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:21 pm

LCDSI wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:48 am I agree empires228 i think the people in south johnson county don't feel compelled to drive to the plaza anymore and they can get a majority of the items online. Either way, it's just depressing to see what's happened to the plaza. I really hope that they turn it around.

If you go out and ask the suburbanites you'll find that many will plainly state a desire to stay away from violent, teenage mobs. Point blank.

THAT fear is your problem. And THAT fear isn't entirely unfounded given what's transpired over the past 15 years.

I don't think it's entirely about that, but having worked in schools down south, a lot of JoCo moms don't want their kids going north of 119th, let alone 135th. I'm not around the suburban parents of other suburban areas outside this county, but I do hear echo's of "oh, I just don't go down there anymore" citing some random incident that happened within the last 30 years that causes them to huddle in fear far away at Summit Fair or Adams Dairy Landing.

As for the other post above saying that there were no minority people on the plaza during their visit, what an odd time to have ended up there. When I'm down there it's usually a very diverse crowd ranging from different races, ages, and socioeconomic status. I just ate at Windstead's on December 12th and on that evening most of the people who happened to be down there holiday shopping were African American. That was just a singular sampling as was your trip. The Nike Store, Apple Store, XXI, Old Navy, and formerly the theater, always have very diverse groups of teens and YA's hanging out around them or waiting in line to get. With Tiffany's Closing, Burberry, Pottery Barn, RH, Halls, and Sur La Table gone, and Coach and Sephora having several suburban stores, I really don't know what takes the "Karen" type down there anymore until Nordstrom opens. The high end gamble only worked for the years when it had destination stores like Halls, Saks, and Bonwit Teller to draw people down there, but I think most people agree that the Plaza worked best when it was mostly a center that served the immediate needs of the surrounding neighborhoods, who apparently don't require it to be an upscale mall anymore. Trying to go upscale and eliminating the function the center was designed to play in the developments is where the Plaza and The Village Shops both went wrong. I think KC has definitely missed out on turning the old Sears or Saks stores into an urban Target. The Halls building has the space as well if you eliminate the parking. Get Price Chopper to open an urban store like the one they wanted to open in Lawrence down there alongside CVS or Walgreens and you're on your way to returning the area to what it was intended to be.

earthling wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:42 pm The Plaza had its share of crime in 80s and 90s (significant open daylight muggings and car jackings that hit news regularly, back when much higher % were glued to local TV news). Crime perception or reality is not the primary issue with The Plaza.

It's the new owner not adapting to the times and struggling themselves now with nearly all of their holdings. Just like KC Star's parent struggling to adapt to a new era. They need to sell Plaza to someone who understands and can adapt Plaza to much broader mixed use, not another mall owner stuck in last century.

As I previously mentioned, the CCP has a new owner. Simon, the former owner of the Topeka and Independence Malls completed their merger with Taubman. Taubman is no longer in the equation here.

empires228 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:20 am As I previously mentioned, the CCP has a new owner. Simon, the former owner of the Topeka and Independence Malls completed their merger with Taubman. Taubman is no longer in the equation here.

Yes, am fully aware of that and Simon is yet another mall operator also now struggling. They should sell Plaza to someone with a much broader mixed use vision and ideally deep enough pockets to make it happen. Maybe even in pieces? Granted Simon is at least trying with some properties but nothing mentioned for Plaza. I didn't mention Taubman BTW.

earthling wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:38 am

empires228 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:20 am As I previously mentioned, the CCP has a new owner. Simon, the former owner of the Topeka and Independence Malls completed their merger with Taubman. Taubman is no longer in the equation here.

Yes, am fully aware of that and Simon is yet another mall operator stuck in last century also now struggling. They should sell Plaza to someone with a much broader mixed use vision and ideally deep enough pockets to make it happen. Maybe even in pieces? Granted Simon is at least trying with some properties but nothing mentioned for Plaza. I didn't mention Taubman BTW.

Good developers are prepared to buy the Plaza whole if Simon puts it up for sale. I hope they do.

So Simon's still mostly a mall operator but doing more than I realized recently with some properties, though their enterprise value and market cap have dropped significantly over last several years, even before COVID. Will give them reluctant benefit of doubt, for a year or so (if they can even continue significant enough investments for a needed Plaza transformation). Hopefully they won't ignore the presence of surrounding neighborhoods as last couple owners have.

An owner with broader existing urban mixed-use portfolio might be better than primarily a mall operator getting started with mixed-use.

ToDactivist wrote: ↑Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:36 pm

flyingember wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:24 pm

ToDactivist wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:17 pm dunno guys...I kind of bit off on the design continuity as important, unique and a "civic treasure" but maybe locals are tired of it already. But if split up (which makes some sense) there still should be an HOA/zoning district that tries to keep this in place. The alternative is a mess like CC North in Denver. And thought Taubman sold most of their 50%? Know that Macerich should still own theirs, and might be majority owner?? I dont recall exact %.

My two bits for whats it worth - usually very little

I picture something like this-

You basically want the current owners to implement a deed restriction that sells the air rights above the plaza to a newly formed third party corporation. With this owned by someone else the owner of the property can't build up.

Require there to be shares sold to a minimum of 100 individuals with voting rights only given to individuals and not corporations. Set the initial bylaws to require 100% agreement to sell any air rights or change the bylaws.

This should make it difficult to build taller within the bowl.


You give the same corporation control over the historic integrity of the area.

Same concept could just be a conservation easement (lost development easement in IRS code) by which the are donated to a qualified historic steward (landmark Comm) thereby preserving the volume. Not perfect in this scenario but has some tax benefits as you can imagine.

How does the ownership break down for the Plaza now? 50% Simon and 50% Macerich?

Walker wrote: ↑Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:47 pm
How does the ownership break down for the Plaza now? 50% Simon and 50% Macerich?

Simon owns 80% of Taubman rather than the company disappearing, so it *technically* didn't change ownership. One partner has a new parent company

flyingember wrote: ↑Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:52 pm

Walker wrote: ↑Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:47 pm
How does the ownership break down for the Plaza now? 50% Simon and 50% Macerich?

Simon owns 80% of Taubman rather than the company disappearing, so it *technically* didn't change ownership. One partner has a new parent company

Simon is doing all leasing and management, The Taubman family retains an ownership stake in the properties that the Taubman corporation owned.

Some of the most exciting projects feature state-of-the-art residential opportunities and ultra-modern office and commercial spaces. SPG has earmarked an additional $5Bn of investments in its properties over the next 5 years (to include 4,500+ residential units, 1M+ square feet commercial office space and 1,500+ hotel rooms). In effect, SPG is investing $1Bn each year in its properties (to put things into perspective, this is more than the market cap of most of its mall peers) and I have no doubt that Simon's centers will be highly sought-after, regardless of the trends in e-commerce and the so-called "retail apocalypse." Physical and digital can and will co-exist.

Hopefully the Plaza is on their earmarked list, with some residential. Though not a given they'll follow through.

I am reading in the Star that Tiffany will re-open on the Plaza. They cite new management wanted to re-assess their presence in KCMO.

https://www.kansascity.com/news/busines ... 00770.html

Highlander wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:04 pm I am reading in the Star that Tiffany will re-open on the Plaza. They cite new management wanted to re-assess their presence in KCMO.

https://www.kansascity.com/news/busines ... 00770.html

"the company said it was happy to reopen its country club plaza location"

Someone renegotiated their lease!

Highlander wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:04 pm I am reading in the Star that Tiffany will re-open on the Plaza. They cite new management wanted to re-assess their presence in KCMO.

https://www.kansascity.com/news/busines ... 00770.html

Louis Vuitton Moet Hennessy (LVMH) just bought Tiffany last month. Regardless, this is really great news from a Plaza image perspective. Luxury retail attracts more luxury retail.

Interestingly, LVMH’s Louis Vuitton has been eyeing the Kansas City market for years (KC is the largest US market that doesn’t have LV). Several years ago, execs apparently visited Oak Park Mall’s Nordstrom to evaluate a store-within-a-store there, but the mall wasn’t “nice enough.”

Louis Vuitton opts for mall locations more than street-side storefronts for security reasons, but when they do, they go for corner spaces. This may be wishful thinking, but I would love to see LV go in the former Helzberg or Tesla space.

For reference, in the past year or two, LV has opened storefronts in midsize cities like Indianapolis and New Orleans. Even Columbus and Salt Lake City have one. It’s past time for KC.

msmith011 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:31 am

Highlander wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:04 pm I am reading in the Star that Tiffany will re-open on the Plaza. They cite new management wanted to re-assess their presence in KCMO.

https://www.kansascity.com/news/busines ... 00770.html

Louis Vuitton Moet Hennessy (LVMH) just bought Tiffany last month. Regardless, this is really great news from a Plaza image perspective. Luxury retail attracts more luxury retail.

Interestingly, LVMH’s Louis Vuitton has been eyeing the Kansas City market for years (KC is the largest US market that doesn’t have LV). Several years ago, execs apparently visited Oak Park Mall’s Nordstrom to evaluate a store-within-a-store there, but the mall wasn’t “nice enough.”

Louis Vuitton opts for mall locations more than street-side storefronts for security reasons, but when they do, they go for corner spaces. This may be wishful thinking, but I would love to see LV go in the former Helzberg or Tesla space.

For reference, in the past year or two, LV has opened storefronts in midsize cities like Indianapolis and New Orleans. Even Columbus and Salt Lake City have one. It’s past time for KC.

I've seen LV at a bunch of airports. Didn't Hall's have a dedicated area for them? An LV at the Helzberg space would be ideal.

normalthings wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:36 am

msmith011 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:31 am

Highlander wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:04 pm I am reading in the Star that Tiffany will re-open on the Plaza. They cite new management wanted to re-assess their presence in KCMO.

https://www.kansascity.com/news/busines ... 00770.html

Louis Vuitton Moet Hennessy (LVMH) just bought Tiffany last month. Regardless, this is really great news from a Plaza image perspective. Luxury retail attracts more luxury retail.

Interestingly, LVMH’s Louis Vuitton has been eyeing the Kansas City market for years (KC is the largest US market that doesn’t have LV). Several years ago, execs apparently visited Oak Park Mall’s Nordstrom to evaluate a store-within-a-store there, but the mall wasn’t “nice enough.”

Louis Vuitton opts for mall locations more than street-side storefronts for security reasons, but when they do, they go for corner spaces. This may be wishful thinking, but I would love to see LV go in the former Helzberg or Tesla space.

For reference, in the past year or two, LV has opened storefronts in midsize cities like Indianapolis and New Orleans. Even Columbus and Salt Lake City have one. It’s past time for KC.

I've seen LV at a bunch of airports. Didn't Hall's have a dedicated area for them? An LV at the Helzberg space would be ideal.

Hall’s carries a very limited selection of vintage bags, but isn’t an official location. If LV is in a department store (see Nordstrom in Seattle), they have a sizable branded space.