KCRag Forum

Tiffany's is now closing on the plaza. Not really sure what Taubmann is going to do with all these empty storefronts. Pretty sad to see what's happening down there.

https://www.kansascity.com/news/busines ... tage_card2

^Perhaps time to target broader mixed use for Plaza (such as residential within, more than just a mall) or sell to someone experienced in that.

That nordstrom will probably never open. I wonder what will happen there. Could open that entire block to a big mixed use development.

earthling wrote: ↑Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:22 pm ^Perhaps time to target broader mixed use for Plaza (such as residential within, more than just a mall) or sell to someone experienced in that.

Just talked to someone about this. Others with deep pockets are ready to jump in if Taubman puts the Plaza up for sale again. People with significant experience with similar urban projects.

I think it’s time to push Taubman out the door.

Agreed, but the city and residents need to give up some nimby habits too pull it off.

The City should before NIMBYs do and that's what really matters. The NIMBY's and Don't Mess With The Plaza Purists need to realize mixed use is in and single use malls are out. Once targeting mixed use gets buy-in though, the next step is doing it right, in a way that complements Plaza architecture rather than throwing just anything in there. Is realistically doable to place residential buildings on top of existing garages that are tasteful to existing Spanish/Moorish aesthetic (or rebuild the garages than can't take addons, like next to Starbucks).

The plaza won’t survive as is. It has to become more urban.

The stores and high end retail are going. I’m sorry.

Would love to see some mid-rise development right in the heart of the Plaza. Keep the facades where needed, etc etc, but stack condos/apts townhomes everywhere. Make it an actual neighborhood (again).

I wonder if the parking garages could structurally support a few floors of wood-framed construction on top of them for apartments. In particular, the old Halls and large parking garage on 47th between Pennsylvania and Broadway. Then, where Nordstrom is supposed to go, just build apartments there. I could imagine 2-3 floors being added to the former Halls and the 47th and Pennsylvania garages and a 6-8 floor apartment+retail building on the Nordstrom site. If done right, you could probably get close to 250-300 apartments out of this.

Then maybe, just maybe, and this came about as a result of a talk with a Forum user, replace the parking lot along Central (in the middle of the buildings bounded by 47th, Central, Nichols and Broadway) with a public green space. An actual Plaza for the Country Club Plaza. If not that, 3-5 floor infill apartment building.

The designs of the buildings should be one or the other. One being to match the look of Country Club Plaza down to the absolutely finest detail. No cheap looking crap. Or, go full on modern and create a nice juxtaposition between the old, Spanish style buildings, and bold new architecture.

^Taking Plaza to a new level discussed here...
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=20330

- Turning Nichols Rd into a pedestrian only street would involve a 'true' plaza (and also rename to MLK Way while at it), target more restaurants on stretch with outdoor patios.

- There are probably a few candidate garages/buildings that can take a few more wood frame residential floors, but would redevelop the garage next to Starbucks, which alone could become 300+ units. Add a corner Moorish tower to subdue the Plaza purists.

- Target about 5%-10% of retail spaces to serve residential amenities, leaving plenty available to cater to visitors.

Doing something non-Spanish/Moorish could work if complementing Plaza well but will get less resistance if keeping to general theme.

Ok, before posting, I know this will generate a lot of hate, but I've always thought the parking lot that Starbucks, The Classic Cup and the Russel Stover store back/backed up to would make a great place for a winter garden or orangerie. It would be nice if the surrounding businesses could have second fronts into the garden with seating.

Does streetcar change the Plaza? Will it be a place for those in neighborhoods along the line go for a pharmacy or where Art Institute students look for art supplies? They have to get away from restaurant and retail and if they do add them it needs to be for more everyday options. A deli-sandwich shop, tax preparation, small market, flowers, wine shop, musical instruments, scooters, Gamestop, burritos, whatever. If I were them, I'd poach every small shop in Midtown at largely discounted rates from their current ones. Trapp & Co, Cellar Rat, Big Dudes, H&R Block, Chipotle, Crestwood Shops, Blick Art supplies, etc. If they lose many more businesses, they risk the viability of the entire district.

LCDSI wrote: ↑Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:17 pm Tiffany's is now closing on the plaza. Not really sure what Taubmann is going to do with all these empty storefronts. Pretty sad to see what's happening down there.

https://www.kansascity.com/news/busines ... tage_card2

Taubman is no longer a company. The courts forced Simon to go though with buying them out several days ago after Simon had backed out. The Plaza is now (partially) owned by the company that defaulted on Independence Center, and still owns the big malls in Tulsa, OKC, Wichita, and Springfield.

The problem isn't and never has been the composition of the stores. The current problem is that riots, shutdowns, and violence are not conductive to business.

Allowing all the BS to happen on the plaza that has happened (Especially the violence over the last ten years.. even the mayor was in range of gunfire from a mob one night) has been its downfall. The majority of customers would just as much go somewhere safer. It's the same thing you're seeing happen at Independence Center. You allow trash to take these places over, then you say goodbye to the decent folks.

im2kull wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:15 pm The problem isn't and never has been the composition of the stores. The current problem is that riots, shutdowns, and violence are not conductive to business.

Allowing all the BS to happen on the plaza that has happened (Especially the violence over the last ten years.. even the mayor was in range of gunfire from a mob one night) has been its downfall. The majority of customers would just as much go somewhere safer. It's the same thing you're seeing happen at Independence Center. You allow trash to take these places over, then you say goodbye to the decent folks.

You're scared to go to the Plaza?!

beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:17 pm

im2kull wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:15 pm The problem isn't and never has been the composition of the stores. The current problem is that riots, shutdowns, and violence are not conductive to business.

Allowing all the BS to happen on the plaza that has happened (Especially the violence over the last ten years.. even the mayor was in range of gunfire from a mob one night) has been its downfall. The majority of customers would just as much go somewhere safer. It's the same thing you're seeing happen at Independence Center. You allow trash to take these places over, then you say goodbye to the decent folks.

You're scared to go to the Plaza?!

No, but you'd be surprised how many folks are these days. It's called risk management. Plenty of people are CHOOSING to avoid the Plaza and Independence Center. That's the point you're clearly missing. If you're going to flip their minds back to going to the Plaza or Independence Center then you need to avoid having shootings, murders, mobs, and the like occurring there. Retail never survives in high crime areas.

im2kull wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:20 pm

beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:17 pm

im2kull wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:15 pm The problem isn't and never has been the composition of the stores. The current problem is that riots, shutdowns, and violence are not conductive to business.

Allowing all the BS to happen on the plaza that has happened (Especially the violence over the last ten years.. even the mayor was in range of gunfire from a mob one night) has been its downfall. The majority of customers would just as much go somewhere safer. It's the same thing you're seeing happen at Independence Center. You allow trash to take these places over, then you say goodbye to the decent folks.

You're scared to go to the Plaza?!

No, but you'd be surprised how many folks are these days. It's called risk management. Plenty of people are CHOOSING to avoid the Plaza and Independence Center. That's the point you're clearly missing. If you're going to flip their minds back to going to the Plaza or Independence Center then you need to avoid having shootings, murders, mobs, and the like occurring there. Retail never survives in high crime areas.

That's possible but I don't know if its very logical. Oak Park Mall has had multiple shootings and people still go there.

With Nordstroms coming, wonder if Macy's could be poached from Oak Park

im2kull wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:15 pm No, but you'd be surprised how many folks are these days. It's called risk management. Plenty of people are CHOOSING to avoid the Plaza and Independence Center. That's the point you're clearly missing. If you're going to flip their minds back to going to the Plaza or Independence Center then you need to avoid having shootings, murders, mobs, and the like occurring there. Retail never survives in high crime areas.

I’d bet the “risk” of driving from the suburbs to the Plaza is larger than any kind of dark “mob” violence that you seem to find so prevalent. But, I’ve heard this fear about the Plaza and DT since I was a suburban kid. Looking back, it’s more likely the fear was more that daughters would bring a black boy home for dinner than any kind of violence occurring. It was always racist posturing.

langosta wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:48 pm With Nordstroms coming, wonder if Macy's could be poached from Oak Park

Macy’s owns their buildings at Independence Center, Oak Park, Metro North, and Town Center Plaza. I believe the only one they’re leasing post closure of Metcalf South is Lee’s Summit. A recent map floating around based off of Macy’s Inc. cooperate data showed that Macy’s considers all of their stores in the metro as disposable except the two in Kansas. The others, including Prairie Village, were labeled as Neighborhood stores rather than Core stores. The neighborhood stores are the ones they’re basically targeting for closure or stopping all capital investment in. So as of 2019, Oak Park was pretty much the only store generating any notable revenue for them in the metro besides Leawood. I believe the only other Missouri stores on the list were Joplin, Cape Girardeau, and Mehlville. The closure of Cape Girardeau was announced today. In Denver it looks like they plan on giving up on Southwest Plaza and Northfield Stapleton as well as Boulder and Ft. Collins.

Macy’s announced their top 150 stores about three years ago and only two regional stores cracked that list. Town Center Plaza and St Louis Galleria. Given the newer list, it appears that Oak Park and West County Center aren’t far off the list, yet. Macy’s had their time on the plaza where B&N and West Elm are now. They sold the store and the entire division to Dillard’s in 86 who closed downtown Wichita, Topeka, KC, and the CCP pretty rapidly by 1990. Sears, Saks, and Bonwit Teller gave it a go as well with the only long-term survivor being Halls. The departure of stores like Halls, Saks, Burberry, RH (remember when they were going to take over the Halls store for a new flagship and built a small store in Leawood?), Pottery Barn, and Tiffany signal that the shoppers who frequent stores like that aren’t shopping physically at the plaza anymore.

Nordstrom offers some of the brands of some of the only exclusive stores still down there, so that will be interesting to watch. Von Maur out at the disastrous Corbin Park (I would love for them to move to Oak Park or Town Center) also carries a few of those currently Plaza exclusive brands like Vineyard Vines and Tommy Bahama. It’s too bad they won’t touch urban stores because they would have been a good fit for the Plaza when they entered the market, but they made a foolish choice to skip prime destination centers in KC and STL and anchor unfinished developments in both.