Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Discuss items in the urban core outside of Downtown as described above. Everything in the core including the east side (18th & Vine area), Northeast, Plaza, Westport, Brookside, Valentine, Waldo, 39th street, & the entire midtown area.
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FangKC
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

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flyingember
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by flyingember »

taxi wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 2:06 pm I don't know the specifics of this case, but light pollution is a code violation.
Given the city is installing far brighter streetlights citywide at the height of second floor windows it’s not likely to be something easy to get enforcement on
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Highlander
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by Highlander »

flyingember wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:19 am
DaveKCMO wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:02 am
GRID wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:29 am I was going to say somehow build a transit oriented development on the tennis courts, but I thought that was sacred ground.
I've been talking about it for years expecting ONE PERSON to clutch pearls and it hasn't happened... yet. This leads me to believe that (a) I'm in a bubble or (b) Plaza tennis players are not KCMO residents.

Regardless, you can play tennis on a rooftop if the function must stay there.
The contract that runs through 2025 is probably the most critical fact to know. It's run by Genesis for day to day operations. If you have a membership you can use the facility for free. Classes are extra.
page 4
https://kcparks.org/wp-content/uploads/ ... -2020-.pdf

and facility info
https://www.genesishealthclubs.com/loca ... enter.html

Parks is never going to give away this facility unless they can make more than $40,000 per year doing so. Remember, it has to go to a citywide vote so the city can't just give it away.

It also hosts major events and UMKC. This explains why I saw a bus from West Virginia at it one time.
The center has hosted many events, including three Big 12 and the final Big Eight Championships, NCAA Division II Nationals, the Missouri Valley's National Qualifier Sweet 16, a USTA professional men's satellite tournament, USA Tournament Tennis sanctioned play, USTA leagues and instructional programs.
https://kcroos.com/sports/2008/11/16/1626229.aspx
I'd much prefer to keep the tennis courts to lose them to yet another apartment building around the Plaza which is most likely what would happen if that piece of land is made commercial. KC does not have any other extensive tennis courts for the purpose of tournaments. Just because some people here don't play or watch tennis, it doesn't mean the courts are not used and appreciated and are ultimately a draw for the Plaza.

The Streetcar will be a great thing for the Main corridor but I do not think the Plaza is going to get more of a trickle from the street car in terms of traffic. It's a shopping center replete with parking lots that doesn't target the same demographics that will be using the streetcar. What people will be able to do now is hop on the streetcar in downtown with their tennis rackets and head out to the Plaza for a match or practice.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

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^The tennis courts can stay as a rooftop and/or floor within a broader public use building on this site (doesn't have to be housing), with perhaps moving Plaza library here as well. You get much more public function and acts as a gateway to Plaza from streetcar stop, plus potentially a few TOD retail spots that serve neighborhood.

And you might be underestimating the future streetcar traffic given that many weekend suburban/regional visitors can visit key city core sites as a daytrip or two along streetcar. A Moorish gateway between stop and Plaza would be nice touch, rather than a fenced in tennis court. And perhaps grab a coffee while waiting at stop.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by flyingember »

earthling wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:46 pm ^The tennis courts can stay as a rooftop and/or floor within a broader public use building on this site (doesn't have to be housing), with perhaps moving Plaza library here as well. You get much more public function and acts as a gateway to Plaza from streetcar stop, plus potentially a few TOD retail spots that serve neighborhood.

And you might be underestimating the future streetcar traffic given that many weekend suburban/regional visitors can visit all of city core as a daytrip or two along streetcar. A Moorish gateway between stop and Plaza would be nice touch, rather than a fenced in tennis court. And perhaps grab a coffee while waiting at stop.
I think you under estimate how many people can park on the Plaza today and there isn't demand for a building on that spot.
The Plaza is surrounded by thousands of residents and has thousands of parking spots. A few thousand more (on average) by train is a drop in the bucket on the current scale.

And why is the focus on tennis? The city (and maybe the ATA) owns land closer to the streetcar stop than it.

If it's this great spot, why doesn't the city end the lease on the parking lot on the other side of Brookside Blvd and build on it first? Part of it is park land two so would need a vote but it would be an easier sell than the tennis courts.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

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earthling wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:46 pm ^The tennis courts can stay as a rooftop and/or floor within a broader public use building on this site (doesn't have to be housing), with perhaps moving Plaza library here as well. You get much more public function and acts as a gateway to Plaza from streetcar stop, plus potentially a few TOD retail spots that serve neighborhood.

And you might be underestimating the future streetcar traffic given that many weekend suburban/regional visitors can visit key city core sites as a daytrip or two along streetcar. A Moorish gateway between stop and Plaza would be nice touch, rather than a fenced in tennis court. And perhaps grab a coffee while waiting at stop.
The tennis courts are fine at ground level. There is room for a kiosk or more between the courts and Main. Build it two floors and people could watch others play tennis while they wait for the streetcar from above. Of course, that will only benefit the south bound streetcar as the more heavily used northbound streetcar stop will be on the other side of Main.

If you had to alter the tennis courts at all, the terrain allows for an elevated walkway across the center of the tennis courts area which is not used as court space. But that is unnecessary, I don't see any need for any Plaza entrance where the tennis courts are because the entrance to the Plaza is on 47th. If you were to cut across the center of the block that contains the tennis courts, you would be confronted by the block-long east wall of the building that houses the Cheesecake Factory and Forever 21. The tennis court block is in no way an impediment to entering the Plaza as the entrance to the Plaza is further north along 47th street.



https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0417267 ... 384!8i8192
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

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^I see where you're coming from but there'd still be far more public use of that key land with a public use building in addition to still keeping tennis courts. And by gateway I didn't mean crossing in middle of block but as a nicer welcoming front door to Plaza from the stop rather than a fence while also more functional with some TOD retail that services stop, foot patrol offices, library, other recreational, yada yada. Also an opportunity to have both indoor and outdoor tennis courts. Won't be surprising if it becomes one of the highest traffic stops.

Optimizing TOD around all streetcar stops should be a key focus and this will probably become a major one in 10+ year big picture. Dave has pointed this out many times as well. It's a goldmine TOD spot along streetcar line and seems most may not realize this until streetcar actually running by. The City/Parks may end up selling it but hopefully it's put to broader public use and not limited to a luxury private use island.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by FangKC »

I used to work at a hospital that had a tennis court on the roof of the 27th floor.

There is also a tennis club on the fourth floor of Grand Central Station in NYC.

https://gothamist.com/arts-entertainmen ... l-terminal

Here's a building in Brooklyn NY that has one on the 7th floor roof.

https://nypost.com/2021/10/15/nycs-high ... -in-dumbo/

Parks and Recreation could do more with the parcel. Create a big athletic and recreation center like they have in North Kansas City. Put the tennis courts on the roof. Have some tennis courts indoors. Also indoors place racketball courts, basketball courts, pickleball, swimming pools, rock climbing walls, paintball facility, bowling alleys, batting cages, and maybe an indoor mini-golf course. Set all this atop some retail spaces. Across Main to the east on that parking lot put up another apartment building.

Also put in some sort of large CCP signage similar to those around the P&L District, and downtown NKC.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1414171 ... 384!8i8192
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

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^A rec center in this location could offer things the Chiefs fit center doesn't (even collaborate) with some activities open to public w/out a membership.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by MidtownCat »

Any more notable Plaza move-outs to mention? Was doing a little Holiday shopping this past weekend and it’s shocking how little actual decent retail left there is on the Plaza.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by msmith011 »

MidtownCat wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:05 pm Any more notable Plaza move-outs to mention? Was doing a little Holiday shopping this past weekend and it’s shocking how little actual decent retail left there is on the Plaza.
I'm unsure about closures, but LensCrafters just opened next to Marine Layer in the former Halls building. The Plaza website also lists Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel The Exhibition coming to the former Halls building March 22 as well. I assume it's temporary and will be in the former Nike space.

Patiently waiting for updates on any of the many empty storefronts. Trying to remain optimistic, but I fear openings will continue to be somewhat slow-going until we get closer to Nordstrom's fall 2023 opening.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by AlkaliAxel »

I've been wondering this for a long time- but do you think the Plaza ruined the chance to of having great retail and shops downtown?
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

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Lovesac moving in IIRC
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

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Not unless you get into some serious historical revisionism. The plaza got it’s start as a suburban, racist neighborhood. A lot of the later changes and developments were driven as reactions to the suburbs, not to integrating with the urban core.

The plaza hasn’t done itself proud with discriminatory zoning and whatever you want to call the bowl zoning there today, and kc has failed to connect the river crown plaza, but the idea any of that retail would have ended up downtown doesn’t hold water.

Worth bringing up crown center, but that’s too off topic here.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

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WoodDraw wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 4:52 pm Not unless you get into some serious historical revisionism. The plaza got it’s start as a suburban, racist neighborhood. A lot of the later changes and developments were driven as reactions to the suburbs, not to integrating with the urban core.

The plaza hasn’t done itself proud with discriminatory zoning and whatever you want to call the bowl zoning there today, and kc has failed to connect the river crown plaza, but the idea any of that retail would have ended up downtown doesn’t hold water.

Worth bringing up crown center, but that’s too off topic here.
Fang did explain that historical aspect to it awhile back. Still, is that the reason we can't get this stuff downtown? Because people know it's just a couple miles down the road?
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

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^^More reason for a major overhaul. Given it wouldn't' take much to make Plaza a highly functional 'real' urban neighborhood (and KC has very few of those), that should probably be its new long term strategy. It can still have plenty of shopping that's a regional draw (50-75 stores instead of about 100) and shift some retail downtown, which would strengthen both in the end.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by WoodDraw »

AlkaliAxel wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 4:56 pm
WoodDraw wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 4:52 pm Not unless you get into some serious historical revisionism. The plaza got it’s start as a suburban, racist neighborhood. A lot of the later changes and developments were driven as reactions to the suburbs, not to integrating with the urban core.

The plaza hasn’t done itself proud with discriminatory zoning and whatever you want to call the bowl zoning there today, and kc has failed to connect the river crown plaza, but the idea any of that retail would have ended up downtown doesn’t hold water.

Worth bringing up crown center, but that’s too off topic here.
Fang did explain that historical aspect to it awhile back. Still, is that the reason we can't get this stuff downtown? Because people know it's just a couple miles down the road?
I think that’s over simplifying by a large magnitude. Your prior seems to be downtown would have an apple store if the plaza didn’t exist while the reality is there wouldn’t be an urban apple store without the plaza.

Anyway, I hope the plaza can make it work and stay a strong neighborhood. Kc is better with a good Westport and plaza. Not everything needs to be downtown. A strong urban spine helps everyone.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

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earthling wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 4:58 pm ^^More reason for a major overhaul. Given it wouldn't' take much to make Plaza a highly functional 'real' urban neighborhood (and KC has very few of those), that should probably be its new long term strategy. It can still have plenty of shopping that's a regional draw (50-75 stores instead of about 100) and shift some retail downtown, which would strengthen both in the end.
How would we turn Plaza into a neighborhood?
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by WoodDraw »

AlkaliAxel wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 5:45 pm
earthling wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 4:58 pm ^^More reason for a major overhaul. Given it wouldn't' take much to make Plaza a highly functional 'real' urban neighborhood (and KC has very few of those), that should probably be its new long term strategy. It can still have plenty of shopping that's a regional draw (50-75 stores instead of about 100) and shift some retail downtown, which would strengthen both in the end.
How would we turn Plaza into a neighborhood?
Zoning reform to increase density and multi use, make an interior street pedestrian, encourage the end of single ownership.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

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I don't know if a pedestrian street is a needed. Road diet, yes.
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