Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Discuss items in the urban core outside of Downtown as described above. Everything in the core including the east side (18th & Vine area), Northeast, Plaza, Westport, Brookside, Valentine, Waldo, 39th street, & the entire midtown area.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by shinatoo »

kcjak wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:10 am Let's be honest - any grocery store opening within the Plaza would likely not have overall pricing lower than Whole Foods or maybe even Sun Fresh. Are there any non-warehouse grocery stores between the river and 75th that aren't either overpriced or more expensive than their suburban locations?

For the Plaza, you've got high rent and low margin so without really high sales volumes, and in the end, I think convenience would win out over price.
You are correct. But just to be pedantic, Price Chopper in Brookside isn't different than the one in Raytown or Lee's Summit, Constantinos Market in Brookside is more expensive but nothing like Whole Foods, and there is an Aldi on Troost.

But, no one that is staying in a touristy area should expect to have a cheap grocery store at hand. Really just need something like a CVS with an expanded grocery section, not a full-service grocer.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by beautyfromashes »

I can’t imagine a circumstance where the current owners put a grocery store, or even a pharmacy, on the Plaza. They have to maintain their per square foot rent numbers in order to keep financing. They wouldn’t cut rate to attract a grocery. It’s more likely that streetcar pulls residents and tourists to options in the near vacinity and the Plaza keeps space empty until they can get new retailers, if that’s possible.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by earthling »

beautyfromashes wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:12 am I can’t imagine a circumstance where the current owners put a grocery store, or even a pharmacy, on the Plaza. They have to maintain their per square foot rent numbers in order to keep financing. They wouldn’t cut rate to attract a grocery. It’s more likely that streetcar pulls residents and tourists to options in the near vacinity and the Plaza keeps space empty until they can get new retailers, if that’s possible.
Michigan Ave, 5th Ave and similar high rent stretches have pharmacies and small specialty grocers/bodegas. The Plaza had them before and can (should) again. Plaza rent is high relative to metro but not compared to high profile districts in larger cities. Goods are priced relative to rent, is how it works. Is mind boggling to me the Plaza still doesn't have these (as it once did).
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beautyfromashes
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by beautyfromashes »

earthling wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:01 pm
Michigan Ave, 5th Ave and similar high rent stretches have pharmacies and small specialty grocers/bodegas. The Plaza had them before and can (should) again. Plaza rent is high relative to metro but not compared to high profile districts in larger cities. Goods are priced relative to rent, is how it works. Is mind boggling to me the Plaza still doesn't have these (as it once did).
Plaza doesn't have a fraction of the tourist traffic or residents of Michigan Ave or 5th Ave and even those two don't have the grocery stores or pharmacies that you probably need for those populations. That the few places have near constant traffic and business at all times of night and day is probably how they survive. I don't think a Plaza location would have near that kind of traffic or hours. It'd take a subsidy to make it feasible, either by the city or Plaza entity. The streetcar going in is probably more of a solution for those needs.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by earthling »

^And Plaza rents are no where near 5th Ave and Michigan Ave, a fraction. Simply price the goods relative to rent overhead. The Plaza used to have these, no reason it can't again. Is baffling many here don't realize how odd it is Plaza doesn't have these, especially given all the high rise residential surround it with above avg incomes, as well as all the hotels. Hotel visitors often ask about where to walk to for basics and find it odd they have to get a cab/uber to get to one for an urbane district. Even stranger some here almost seem to oppose it. KC has very few full circle urban pedestrian living districts. The Plaza is inches away from getting there but needs these basics.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by Highlander »

earthling wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:48 pm ^And Plaza rents are no where near 5th Ave and Michigan Ave, a fraction. Simply price the goods relative to rent overhead. The Plaza used to have these, no reason it can't again. Is baffling many here don't realize how odd it is Plaza doesn't have these, especially given all the high rise residential surround it with above avg incomes, as well as all the hotels. Hotel visitors often ask about where to walk to for basics and find it odd they have to get a cab/uber to get to one for an urbane district. Even stranger some here almost seem to oppose it. KC has very few full circle urban pedestrian living districts. The Plaza is inches away from getting there but needs these basics.
The plaza opened with a grocery store (https://pendergastkc.org/collection/105 ... cery-store), also had a Wolferman's Store during its history and a more recently a small Muehlbach's specialty grocer (opened in 1979 - closed in 90's?) on the extreme SW corner of the development. I do not think a large- scale grocery would work on the plaza. Rents are too high and it would absolutely need dedicated parking which could be problematic during the holiday season. A small scale specialty grocer doesn't really serve any neighborhood purpose, they mostly sell expensive items people cannot buy at conventional grocery stores.

I would like to see the Plaza maintained as a high end retail center in as much as that is possible. Presently, it's losing the arms race with south Johnson County where there is a much large wealthy and upper middle class population sequestered away from any of the urban issues that impact the plaza. Without gentrification of the west and north plaza area which fortunately is happening to some extent, the Plaza will struggle to remain what it is because Johnson County offers greener pastures for retailers due to its demographics.

The Plaza remains a shopping center controlled by a single entity not a collection of lots where various landowners can put in whatever they see fit. It's been an economic engine for KC as well drawing both tourists to KC and helping KC compete with Johnson County Kansas for business and retail that would not exist in the city without it.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by earthling »

^A small scale market certainly does meet basic needs, just like a bodega in any urban neighborhood with major grocery shopping sought elsewhere (E Side food deserts need these too). Setting 2% of retail spaces aside for neighborhood amenities still allows for it to remain mostly a shopping center but it's surrounded by hirise living and hotels and Nichols' catered to that, the last two owners completely ignored it as if non-existent. One of the densest parts of metro with above avg income. And again, KC has very very few full circle pedestrian living districts and the Plaza is inches away from getting there, back where it was when it had both market/pharmacy.

Even if Plaza cut back to 75 stores and focused on transitioning partly to a village (add residential on top of the garages) with say broader nightlife/services it would still be a regional draw as long as a half dozen or so retailers are unique to metro/region. Convert some/most of Nichols Rd to pedestrian only, perhaps Moorish style "Plaza" while at it, giving it something fresh. The fact that Plaza owners are struggling with maintaining unique stores to metro should justify broader mixed-use even further.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by FangKC »

The Plaza would benefit from a small convenience store/bodega--or several. The problem is where to put it/them, because it determines who it would be convenient to. It would probably have to be on a parcel that is not controlled by the owners of the Country Club Plaza buildings.

The other issue -- in regards to serving hotel guests -- is that Plaza hotels aren't congregated near each other. There are three nodes: East Plaza Marriott and Courtyard by Marriott; West Plaza near the intersection of W. 47th Street and Madison; and South Plaza at Wornall. Hotel guests and apartment residents probably aren't going to walk 8 blocks to a convenience store. Apartment residents will just get in a car and drive.

Ideally, there would be small convenience stores spread around the Plaza area: in the base of the V-shaped new development at 47th and Madison; one located where Cafe Trio is; and another wrapped around the base of the Alameda Tower parking garage; near St. Luke's at 43rd and Washington--where that church is.

I still question if there would be enough pedestrian traffic. A lot of the recent development isn't dense enough to support these small markets.

The other issue is that many in the immediate area would probably oppose convenience stores, and many immediately assume it would bring in a bad element at night.

With the changing retail landscape, the Plaza might have to open up to the idea of one of these types of operations. Spaces might not be able to stay leased all the time, and at such high rents. The owners might have to consider alternatives.

When I lived in NYC, there was a deli in the base of my 36-story apartment building that stayed open all-night. It had the deli-counter but also hot food trays, and salad bar. I went there almost every day, and got a good number of my meals there.

If I could redevelop an area much more densely than has been happening in that area, it would be these parcels:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/770+W ... 94.5958596

I'd put up at minimum 12-to- 20-story apartment towers on all those surface lots.

I'd do the same here:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/770+ ... 94.5958596
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by jasty5 »

Goonies wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 1:21 am Sounds like crime is getting real bad on the plaza lately.
What's your source? I live near the plaza and walk around it frequently after hours with my dog, I haven't noticed anything.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by earthling »

Crimes lower on Plaza compared to past and less serious than center of downtown according to this crime map.
https://cityprotect.com/map/list/incide ... 59:59.999Z


The Plaza had car jacking problems in 80s, serious muggings in 90s, flash mobs in 2000s. Some assaults but mostly shoplifting now. Relatively tame now compared to past and in expected range for a high profile shopping district.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by brewcrew1000 »

jasty5 wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 6:50 am
Goonies wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 1:21 am Sounds like crime is getting real bad on the plaza lately.
What's your source? I live near the plaza and walk around it frequently after hours with my dog, I haven't noticed anything.
Source is some guy from Olathe who watches the local news and complains about KC on the local news social media sites about how much of a shithole KC has become
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by TheLastGentleman »

On r/kansascity someone claimed to be followed by some suspicious people to their car. The story got a lot of attention on there with many replies like “things are getting so terrible! The plaza was the crown jewel of the city!”, ect, ect.

So that might be this supposed “really bad” crime goonies is claiming
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by tskev »

Well apparently someone was shot at the Sheraton. Streets were blocked off this morning:

https://fox4kc.com/news/shooting-at-kan ... y-injured/
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by flyingember »

Goonies wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:41 pm
brewcrew1000 wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 7:59 am
jasty5 wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 6:50 am

What's your source? I live near the plaza and walk around it frequently after hours with my dog, I haven't noticed anything.
Source is some guy from Olathe who watches the local news and complains about KC on the local news social media sites about how much of a shithole KC has become
Dumb post
A lazy response (both individuals) doesn't make their point not true.

People claiming the past was better and today is going downhill is a time honored tradition. Unless they can point to actual data, it's just false moral outrage.

https://www.jasonfeifer.com/build-for-tomorrow/
the May 2019 episode of this podcast is relevant to the topic.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by brewcrew1000 »

Found goonies source of information on a service worker attacked, tony's kc might be worse then a guy from Olathe bitching about KC on social media

https://www.tonyskansascity.com/2021/06 ... y.html?m=1

I don't think the guy was randomly attacked out of the blue or after a night shift, this had to be some drunken altercation
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by flyingember »

The city has a crime map available.

Filters in the upper left lets you limit to robberies. The date range didn't work for me so pick past month if it's being a pain.

https://cityprotect.com/map/list/agenci ... ate=custom

In the past month there were approx 3 robberies per day. This includes business robberies. In Westport 2/6 were businesses.

In the past month the top crime on the plaza area appears to be shoplifting and other forms of petty theft, something which I'm sure is a common crime in all communities
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by brewcrew1000 »

Goonies wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 6:17 pm
brewcrew1000 wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 5:53 pm Found goonies source of information on a service worker attacked, tony's kc might be worse then a guy from Olathe bitching about KC on social media

https://www.tonyskansascity.com/2021/06 ... y.html?m=1

I don't think the guy was randomly attacked out of the blue or after a night shift, this had to be some drunken altercation
Yeah and all the other people who've came forward this week weren't randomly robbed either. KC is a non violent town with no crime.
This bartender story sounds bogus and he wasnt working a shift on the plaza late at night, it said in the facebook post he was at a pool party, probably got really wasted and got his ass kicked by someone.
It's just like that Euston hardware kid the local news tried making a huge deal out, where he was completely wasted, got in a fight in Wesport, the other guy defended himself, Euston hardware kid died and the person who did it walked free but the Euston Hardware family wanted to make it a huge story and wanted justice served
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by dukuboy1 »

unfortunately crime happens everywhere, and more likely than not it tends to lead to some kind of violence, and at worst gun violence. People have grown so quick tempted over the years that any altercation or disagreement ends up in violence. Our culture has shifted more to quick tempers & violence than being reasonable and turning the other cheek. Not sure why but it has happened. Not saying it is every where all the time and still I would say about 90% of the ppl out there are reasonable and decent people. The other 10% are the trouble makers. That has maybe grown from 5% to 10% in the last 40 years.

I mean wasn't the umpire Steve Palermo shot on the Plaza back in the 80's. Anywhere ppl gather there is a chance for violence.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by flyingember »

Goonies wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:09 pm
flyingember wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:13 am The city has a crime map available.

Filters in the upper left lets you limit to robberies. The date range didn't work for me so pick past month if it's being a pain.

https://cityprotect.com/map/list/agenci ... ate=custom

In the past month there were approx 3 robberies per day. This includes business robberies. In Westport 2/6 were businesses.

In the past month the top crime on the plaza area appears to be shoplifting and other forms of petty theft, something which I'm sure is a common crime in all communities
So people are lying about being robbed? Those crime maps are notorious for not being accurate.
That crime map is from police reports.

It is possible people aren’t reporting to the police, that clearly already happens with many crimes.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by KCDowntown »

Two permits for the Apple Store on the Plaza at 227 Nichols Rd:

1. To split the fire protection insallation with another tenant
2. Casual Animal Microbrewery Expansion

Seems odd to me, but there are two permits with this address - maybe its in a different space in this building...

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