Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Discuss items in the urban core outside of Downtown as described above. Everything in the core including the east side (18th & Vine area), Northeast, Plaza, Westport, Brookside, Valentine, Waldo, 39th street, & the entire midtown area.
horizons82
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by horizons82 »

flyingember wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:34 pm
horizons82 wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:01 pm I’d agree multiple owners is likely to be a net positive IF the city has its act together and, in tandem with a splintering, codifies much of what makes the plaza a good urban space.
The general plaza area has more than 30 owners (it and the few blocks around it). There's tons of competition today and it hasn't done a thing.

the city can only follow zoning, it can't somehow force the land to be broken up and sold off and if it is it can't force specific development. Any new owners would be most likely to maintain the status quo since there's actual tenants
Not sure how the “general plaza area” negates what I said. Also it hasn’t done what “thing”?

To your second point, I never said anything about the city forcing the land the broken up. So idk who you’re talking to on that one. I was engaging with the hypothetical already being discussed.

Cities can force certain types of development and they do it all the time. That’s what zoning and codes are... I mean ffs for example, right next door in Overland Park they require at least partial masonry at the base of all new commercial construction. That’s not a life and safety issue, that’s just pure preference. Back to the plaza, form based codes are especially applicable here. As are parking regulations. Both enforceable by the city.

Not sure where you’re getting this status quo confidence either. There’s multiple avenues developers can choose to take. As one of the most valuable spots in the city, there’s a greater than 0% chance some may wish to redevelop to maximize their invest. I mean, hell, thats what the current owners did with luring in Nordstrom. And it wasn’t that long ago that the balcony building and Neptune apartments were going to get the axe.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by horizons82 »

earthling wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:36 pm
^Is Nichols Rd and other Plaza streets a private street?

Good point on parking challenges. Does The City have any powers to set parameters for a private sale. For any garages that had public aid seems likely, but what about others.
AFAIK, the plaza streets are not private, but someone else may know better.

The actual sale would be difficult to attach any stipulations to from the city. Perhaps a lawyer could make a case via the public subsidies, but I’ve never heard of such a move. The strongest leverage the city has is in its zoning and development approval process. Creation of a special zoning type for solely the plaza could be created whenever if desired.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

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Is there a way to mute or ignore certain members? Asking for a friend.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by Riverite »

shinatoo wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:22 pm Is there a way to mute or ignore certain members? Asking for a friend.
I think if you click on someone’s profile you can add a foe, I’m not positive if it hides their stuff but I think it does
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by earthling »

horizons82 wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:33 pm
earthling wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:36 pm
^Is Nichols Rd and other Plaza streets a private street?

Good point on parking challenges. Does The City have any powers to set parameters for a private sale. For any garages that had public aid seems likely, but what about others.
AFAIK, the plaza streets are not private, but someone else may know better.

The actual sale would be difficult to attach any stipulations to from the city. Perhaps a lawyer could make a case via the public subsidies, but I’ve never heard of such a move. The strongest leverage the city has is in its zoning and development approval process. Creation of a special zoning type for solely the plaza could be created whenever if desired.
Yeah from what I can tell Nichols Rd isn't private so if Plaza sold in pieces and an association of mixed owners were formed, seems doable to work with City to make Nichols a ped only street at some point.

TIF garages may depend on how the terms were laid out but couldn't the City have a say for public use for at least as long as the TIF is still in place if not longer depending on the terms?
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by TheLastGentleman »

I still maintain that there's only two directions the Plaza can go in;

1) Getting absorbed into the rest of the urban fabric.
This will inevitably happen if the place gets sold piecemeal. As surrounding development has shown, developers don't feel much responsibility to commit to the Plaza aesthetic, so you'd get a mixed bag of architecture from this. It could get things developed faster, though.

2) Committing to the aesthetic and theming.
This would require an owner that actually understands what it is they own. The Plaza is a massive collection of escapist Spanish Revival architecture. That is its only defining characteristic beyond the fancy retail, and is what popular imagery of the Plaza focuses on.

If an owner really leaned into this angle and made sure everything fit within the theme, you could have something resembling a section of the World Showcase of Epcot at Disneyworld. Something so audacious, unique, and interesting that it would make the Plaza wholly its own thing. An experience, one you can only see in Kansas City Missouri!

That said, this is the Plaza we're talking about, not downtown. Either way is fine with me, but if I were a big Plaza enthusiast, I would DEFINITELY be rooting for option #2.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by earthling »

1+2 could still be doable if an association of mixed entities were formed that has a 'master plan' to maintain #2. But agree the risk is that it may not be maintained. And there will likely be some exceptions that are OK to some but too off base from 'master plan' for others. But that can happen with a single owner as well. If sold off in pieces can count on an uproar from what you're calling 'Plaza enthusiasts'... aka Plaza 'traditionalists' who don't want any change, despite it has been evolving more urbanized in some ways back and forth over the decades.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by FangKC »

earthling wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:20 am Plaza owner Taubman had a deal to be purchased by mall owner Simon, but it's not going through due to pandemic...
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/10/mall-ow ... demic.html

Time to sell off The Plaza in pieces?

If a new Plaza Neighborhood Association with multiple entities per block were formed that focuses on local expectations of what Plaza should be, could be better than a single bad actor owner who doesn't recognize there's a neighborhood around it and only interested in bottom line of all their assets. Many individual owners typically provides more organic evolution of variety. FangKC can describe that better than I can.
Organic development tends to work in restarting low-value real estate and turning it back into a useful, functioning mixed neighborhood again.

It has less impact in an already high-value neighborhood where the developer/owners wants to control programming of the product mix (Plaza, Cordish).

One thing I'd like to point out about the Plaza -- versus most other retail districts in the Metro -- is that the owner(s) do have to attempt to maintain exclusivity and prestige that comes from higher-end retail and tenants (law firms, investment firms, etc.). Even residential needs to be somewhat higher-end.

Why? Because the architecture requires more maintenance and the neighborhood upkeep (Landscaping, fountains). To keep the district an exclusive property, the owner(s) must be able to afford to repair historic architecture in its' original form, and not resort to removing expensive baubles like the Spanish towers, fountains, etc.

Many real estate firms might try and cut corners. So to keep the Plaza "the Plaza," you need high rents to pay for upkeep of buildings -- that because of their design -- are more expensive to maintain than non-descript structures in a strip mall.

I'll give an example. The former Coates House Hotel building at 10th and Broadway had -- at some point in its' life -- the decorative Victorian towers removed from its' corners. That was probably done to minimize expensive maintenance.

Image

Image

The are pros and cons for both types of Plaza ownership: single entity vs. multiple owners. A single owner has some incentive to keep a consistent level of maintenance and standards in the district to maximize rents and property value.

Multiple owners increases the likelihood of competition in rents, and innovation in the retail mix. Multiple ownership of the Plaza would likely increase the likelihood of more bad actor owners. Imagine, for example, if an Abnos purchased two or three individual buildings on different blocks and did minimal maintenance -- including non-compliant alterations and repairs. Abnos' actions could start to affect the property value of adjacent buildings and blocks. What if Abnos rented space to tattoo parlors, a dollar store, and payday loan companies?

A neighborhood association would deal with many of these problems assuming that one could be set up. When building new, a developer can set one up at the start making things much easier. It's harder to set one up in an existing district because you have to get buy-in from a majority of property owners to contribute financially to the association, and to submit to enforcement actions. The most common approach is to set up a community improvement district, but that doesn't have the strict rules that a neighborhood association might.

Multiple ownership might work with just a good CID; strict zoning; and tough code enforcement by the CIty. The problem with the last two is that KCMO doesn't have the best history with long-term zoning, city plans, and code enforcement. One change in administration and all progress can be easily lost. Better with most buildings in the Plaza in a historic district, and certain buildings individually listed. While historic designation doesn't completely protect the district, it sets a tone. Individual building listing provides some financial help in affording expensive maintenance. Good luck ever getting a single owner to place the Plaza on the National Register of Historic Places, or allowing the City to landmark buildings. It's not in their financial interest to limit what they can do with such a large property. Multiple ownership might get some individual buildings on the historic register since the owner might seek tax credits to renovate--since they might not have as much access to capital or liquidity.

I wish the Nichols family would have placed the entire property on the National Register before they sold it. That was probably the best chance it had for that. I don't think the Save the Plaza group is ever going to get a single owner to agree to it.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by FangKC »

TheLastGentleman wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:07 pm 2) Committing to the aesthetic and theming.
This would require an owner that actually understands what it is they own. The Plaza is a massive collection of escapist Spanish Revival architecture. That is its only defining characteristic beyond the fancy retail, and is what popular imagery of the Plaza focuses on.

If an owner really leaned into this angle and made sure everything fit within the theme, you could have something resembling a section of the World Showcase of Epcot at Disneyworld. Something so audacious, unique, and interesting that it would make the Plaza wholly its own thing. An experience, one you can only see in Kansas City Missouri!
The escapist Spanish Revival architecture is the BRAND of the entire district. It's what make the neighborhood distinct. It's how you know you are on "the Plaza." It's been wildly successful, and one would think any adjacent developer would want to latch on to that. But it has to be "touching" the original neighborhood to be effective. If you built a string of new ornate Spanish Revival retail buildings on Main from Linwood to Armour Boulevard, that would be too far away to be associated with the BRAND. Had those office buildings not been built on the east side of Main along Cleaver, you could have extended the Plaza brand a bit eastward. Otherwise, there aren't that many parcels that can be have new structures as part of the Plaza BRAND.

If a single owner of the Plaza, or multiple owners if it's sold off piecemeal, ever demolishes one of the lesser retail buildings and rebuilds, it would make sense for them to adhere to the BRAND no matter what they are building.
Last edited by FangKC on Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by earthling »

FangKC wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:10 am A neighborhood association would deal with many of these problems assuming that one could be set up. When building new, a developer can set one up at the start making things much easier. It's harder to set one up in an existing district because you have to get buy-in from a majority of property owners to contribute financially to the association, and to submit to enforcement actions. The most common approach is to set up a community improvement district, but that doesn't have the strict rules that a neighborhood association might.
Taubman or last single owner could setup an association before selling off in pieces then hand over at some point. Could set the stage more easily. Developers for condo HOAs essentially do this, handing over to board of owners at some point.

Westport has a master plan with an association of many entities.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by Steve52 »

Imagine something that people-citizens-visitors could actually just relax and enjoy. I suppose though that would be boring for thrill and amusement seekers with limited attention spans and zero long term vision. And of course what would developers do if they can't constantly be disrupting things and tearing everything apart and down constantly in the pursuit of profit. Maybe the Plaza could be a thriving neighborhood?
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by dukuboy1 »

normalthings wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:17 pm
dukuboy1 wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:29 pm I don't think there is anything wrong with a single owner for the Plaza. I just think that owner needs to understand the balance of retail/entertainment with residential. Also they need to be skilled at dealing with the unique aesthetics of the Plaza and architecture, etc.

I think that can be found and one willing to work with surrounding neighborhoods. I also would like to see the City take an approach to treat it as such. The View and needs of the neighborhood groups are very valid and should be adhered & heard. In some cases they have been a little too vocal & or vocal without compromise. The Plaza has changed a lot since the late 70's & early 80's from when some of those folks moved in.

I think too many owners with a voice would be hard to manage and get anything done. Or 1 end of the Plaza would end up being developed while others may suffer because they could never agree on anything.
I think that some competition would go a long way towards achieving many of the goals we want. The market of firms looking to spend $700 million on a shoppivery limited. However, if you break it down by block or segments you would be able to make the Plaza accessible to a wider market of developers/owners. Quality developers such as PV, Cordish, MAC, etc will not likely be willing or able to buy the entire district but they would be able to purchase a block or 2. I don’t think you break the plaza into sub-block chunks though. I think you want them big enough to prevent low capital, inexperienced firms from buying in.

Rents too high for local businesses yet vacancies are high? Competition will fix this

Buildings under utilized (@Starbucks Block)? Competition can allow for refurbishment and redevelopment that a single owner would have no incentive to do otherwise

No mix of office/residential inside the bowl itself? Competition will bring in a developer to take advantage of the market demands


That is a very attractive building, I agree would be nice to see some design like that in the area. Not sure where, but somewhere.
Outside of “The Plaza” proper, I worry that Price Development has been able to buy up too much land - pretty much every open space for development appears to be under them at this point. I want to see some variety in design and scale in what gets put up around the plaza - I don’t think Price does towers for example.

This MAC project about to open in STL would look great on the edge of the Plaza IMHO.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by earthling »

https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/ ... -deal.html
"Taubman intends to hold Simon to its obligations under the Merger Agreement and the agreed transaction, and to vigorously contest Simon’s purported termination and legal claims," Taubman said. "Taubman intends to pursue its remedies to enforce its contractual rights under the Merger Agreement, including, among other things, the right to specific performance and the right to monetary damages, including damages based on the deal price."
Says Taubman owns 26 properties and that many are dependent on tourists so harder hit than retail average.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by WoodDraw »

Doesn't the plaza have a cid tax that pays for parking and flowers and what not?

I don't get why the plaza would be very lucrative to sell off with the bowl zoning requirements. What developer wants to buy a place you can't build on? You're just a landlord at this point.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by FangKC »

It depends on the owner. Sometimes investment groups just buy property not to redevelop, but to have consistent source of rent, and property likely to hold its' value. These groups want something that provides them 6-8 percent return as a hedge against inflation with lower risk. These holdings are often part of a mix of real estate types.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by WoodDraw »

FangKC wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:44 pm It depends on the owner. Sometimes investment groups just buy property not to redevelop, but to have consistent source of rent, and property likely to hold its' value. These groups want something that provides them 6-8 percent return as a hedge against inflation with lower risk. These holdings are often part of a mix of real estate types.
Sure but we're taking about two different things then. People are saying breaking it up to improve competition, but what I'm saying and what I think you're saying is that those owners would likely be even more conservative.

What you'd have to do is have zoning reopen along with it.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by shinatoo »

Riverite wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:28 pm
shinatoo wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:22 pm Is there a way to mute or ignore certain members? Asking for a friend.
I think if you click on someone’s profile you can add a foe, I’m not positive if it hides their stuff but I think it does
Yes, it works. Can still see that they posted but don't see the post. Not perfect but better.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by flyingember »

shinatoo wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:50 am
Riverite wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:28 pm
shinatoo wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:22 pm Is there a way to mute or ignore certain members? Asking for a friend.
I think if you click on someone’s profile you can add a foe, I’m not positive if it hides their stuff but I think it does
Yes, it works. Can still see that they posted but don't see the post. Not perfect but better.
It's the option for people who like to put their head in the sand
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by DaveKCMO »

WoodDraw wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:08 pm Doesn't the plaza have a cid tax that pays for parking and flowers and what not?

I don't get why the plaza would be very lucrative to sell off with the bowl zoning requirements. What developer wants to buy a place you can't build on? You're just a landlord at this point.
There's no CID for the Country Club Plaza. There is a 1/2-cent sales tax TDD that built and maintains several of the newer parking garages.

https://www.kcmo.gov/home/showdocument?id=1333

Agreed on the bowl restriction affecting the Plaza's value.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by taxi »

flyingember wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:19 pm It's the option for people who like to put their head in the sand
Did you say something?
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