Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

[KCtoBrooklyn]

I don't recall seeing that rendering before, but I believe that project was shot down by city government (I can't remember which agency: cpc, bza, council....). I think it was denied the necessary exemption to the height restriction

[Riverite]

I don't recall seeing that rendering before, but I believe that project was shot down by city government (I can't remember which agency: cpc, bza, council....). I think it was denied the necessary exemption to the height restriction

That’s a shame, I think the bowl really adds to the aesthetic rather than detracts from it

[normalthings]

https://www.costar.com/costarconnect/Ma ... =745018466

This website is not easy to use but it looks like 46 Penn is 100% leased on the office side with only 2 retail/ F&B spots still open. $40 per sqft asking rent.

One area says 100,000 sqft is left open but then under "available spaces" all that shows is the 2 retail spots.

[dukuboy1]

I don't recall seeing that rendering before, but I believe that project was shot down by city government (I can't remember which agency: cpc, bza, council....). I think it was denied the necessary exemption to the height restriction

Bummer they could not come back with another proposal for this. Maybe reduce height by a few floors? Or have those issues been resolved? I know there will be a building & development on the site of the small Commerce branch that had drive thru lanes & the surrounding surface lots Commerce owns (owned). Plus development of South end of St. Luke’s & the residential around it. This would be great use of an abandoned bldg right now

[KCtoBrooklyn]

I'm not sure where that rendering comes from, but it doesn't appear to match the proposal that was shot down due to height restrictions. That proposal was only supposed to add 3 floors, while that rendering looks like it adds 6 floors (although it is hard to tell exactly).

The proposal was from Northpoint for an assisted living facility. They ended up redeveloping the office buildings on the NE corner of Clever and Main as luxury assisted living, so I assume that might have replaced this proposal.

This plan came out around the same time as the original Commerce site plan, as well as 44th and Washington. Both of those were approved, but had to be scaled down a bit. I think the Artistry apartment development just east of the Plaza was also approved at that time, but it seems to be stalled/dead. I think that to some extent, this development might have been the sacrificial victim. It was killed to appease the NIMBYs so that the other projects could live. I believe the Parkway Towers condo owners were the most vocal opposition. They seem to be the most egregious NIMBYs in the area.

[earthling]

Plaza owner Taubman had a deal to be purchased by mall owner Simon, but it's not going through due to pandemic...
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/10/mall-ow ... demic.html

Time to sell off The Plaza in pieces?

If a new Plaza Neighborhood Association with multiple entities per block were formed that focuses on local expectations of what Plaza should be, could be better than a single bad actor owner who doesn't recognize there's a neighborhood around it and only interested in bottom line of all their assets. Many individual owners typically provides more organic evolution of variety. FangKC can describe that better than I can.

[dukuboy1]

I don't think there is anything wrong with a single owner for the Plaza. I just think that owner needs to understand the balance of retail/entertainment with residential. Also they need to be skilled at dealing with the unique aesthetics of the Plaza and architecture, etc.

I think that can be found and one willing to work with surrounding neighborhoods. I also would like to see the City take an approach to treat it as such. The View and needs of the neighborhood groups are very valid and should be adhered & heard. In some cases they have been a little too vocal & or vocal without compromise. The Plaza has changed a lot since the late 70's & early 80's from when some of those folks moved in.

I think too many owners with a voice would be hard to manage and get anything done. Or 1 end of the Plaza would end up being developed while others may suffer because they could never agree on anything.

[shinatoo]

It's time to give up on the Plaza being exclusively a high-end retail center and move back to where it was. A mix of high end retail and neighborhood amenities. No reason a drug store and a high end grocery wouldn't work their now.

[normalthings]

I don't think there is anything wrong with a single owner for the Plaza. I just think that owner needs to understand the balance of retail/entertainment with residential. Also they need to be skilled at dealing with the unique aesthetics of the Plaza and architecture, etc.

I think that can be found and one willing to work with surrounding neighborhoods. I also would like to see the City take an approach to treat it as such. The View and needs of the neighborhood groups are very valid and should be adhered & heard. In some cases they have been a little too vocal & or vocal without compromise. The Plaza has changed a lot since the late 70's & early 80's from when some of those folks moved in.

I think too many owners with a voice would be hard to manage and get anything done. Or 1 end of the Plaza would end up being developed while others may suffer because they could never agree on anything.

I think that some competition would go a long way towards achieving many of the goals we want. The market of firms looking to spend $700 million on a shoppivery limited. However, if you break it down by block or segments you would be able to make the Plaza accessible to a wider market of developers/owners. Quality developers such as PV, Cordish, MAC, etc will not likely be willing or able to buy the entire district but they would be able to purchase a block or 2. I don’t think you break the plaza into sub-block chunks though. I think you want them big enough to prevent low capital, inexperienced firms from buying in.

Rents too high for local businesses yet vacancies are high? Competition will fix this

Buildings under utilized (@Starbucks Block)? Competition can allow for refurbishment and redevelopment that a single owner would have no incentive to do otherwise

No mix of office/residential inside the bowl itself? Competition will bring in a developer to take advantage of the market demands



Outside of “The Plaza” proper, I worry that Price Development has been able to buy up too much land - pretty much every open space for development appears to be under them at this point. I want to see some variety in design and scale in what gets put up around the plaza - I don’t think Price does towers for example.

This MAC project about to open in STL would look great on the edge of the Plaza IMHO.

[horizons82]

Breaking the plaza apart also presents some challenges. Relative to things people talk about on here, there’s two big ones:

- More owners creates more headaches for trying to covert Nichols Rd to a pedestrian mall

- Most importantly it splinters parking; eventually some individual owners are going to want to redevelop and add even more parking. Likely at the expense of active frontage. The city would need to really need to have a strong game plan for shared use and cooperation. In all honesty this should probably be looked at regardless given the ages of some of the garages.

I’d agree multiple owners is likely to be a net positive IF the city has its act together and, in tandem with a splintering, codifies much of what makes the plaza a good urban space.

[flyingember]

It's time to give up on the Plaza being exclusively a high-end retail center and move back to where it was. A mix of high end retail and neighborhood amenities. No reason a drug store and a high end grocery wouldn't work their now.

It's *NOT* exclusively high end retail. there's offices above the retail in many spots and residential in a couple of buildings. remember the "save the plaza" protestors. that was about kicking out residents from a plaza building and modifying a retail building to tear down and put in offices

There's a CVS at 50th and Main, 43rd and Troost, 39th and Main, 43rd and Rainbow, a Walgreens at 35th and Broadway (speciality pharmacy), 39th and Broadway, 46th and Troost, one in Walmart and Hen House just the other side of Rainbow, one in KU Med and St Lukes. I would give good odds a 12th drug store isn't going to happen, and that the rent at the existing spots will remain lower than on the plaza for some time

As for a grocery store, there's already one less than five blocks away in two spots. A grocery store on the plaza seems silly when there's not a single available space big enough without kicking out multiple tenants.


how far back do you go to get to what the plaza was? remember that the plaza started out with lots of surface parking lots and gas stations. Be careful what you ask for.

[flyingember]

I’d agree multiple owners is likely to be a net positive IF the city has its act together and, in tandem with a splintering, codifies much of what makes the plaza a good urban space.

The general plaza area has more than 30 owners (it and the few blocks around it). There's tons of competition today and it hasn't done a thing.

the city can only follow zoning, it can't somehow force the land to be broken up and sold off and if it is it can't force specific development. Any new owners would be most likely to maintain the status quo since there's actual tenants

[earthling]

Breaking the plaza apart also presents some challenges. Relative to things people talk about on here, there’s two big ones:

- More owners creates more headaches for trying to covert Nichols Rd to a pedestrian mall

- Most importantly it splinters parking; eventually some individual owners are going to want to redevelop and add even more parking. Likely at the expense of active frontage. The city would need to really need to have a strong game plan for shared use and cooperation. In all honesty this should probably be looked at regardless given the ages of some of the garages.

I’d agree multiple owners is likely to be a net positive IF the city has its act together and, in tandem with a splintering, codifies much of what makes the plaza a good urban space.

^Is Nichols Rd and other Plaza streets a private street?

Good point on parking challenges. Does The City have any powers to set parameters for a private sale. For any garages that had public aid seems likely, but what about others.

[earthling]

It's time to give up on the Plaza being exclusively a high-end retail center and move back to where it was. A mix of high end retail and neighborhood amenities. No reason a drug store and a high end grocery wouldn't work their now.

It's *NOT* exclusively high end retail. there's offices above the retail in many spots and residential in a couple of buildings. remember the "save the plaza" protestors. that was about kicking out residents from a plaza building and modifying a retail building to tear down and put in offices

There's a CVS at 50th and Main, 43rd and Troost, 39th and Main, 43rd and Rainbow, a Walgreens at 35th and Broadway (speciality pharmacy), 39th and Broadway, 46th and Troost, one in Walmart and Hen House just the other side of Rainbow, one in KU Med and St Lukes. I would give good odds a 12th drug store isn't going to happen, and that the rent at the existing spots will remain lower than on the plaza for some time

As for a grocery store, there's already one less than five blocks away in two spots. A grocery store on the plaza seems silly when there's not a single available space big enough without kicking out multiple tenants.


how far back do you go to get to what the plaza was? remember that the plaza started out with lots of surface parking lots and gas stations. Be careful what you ask for.

You tend to think at a suburban scale, not pedestrian scale.

[flyingember]

Does The City have any powers to set parameters for a private sale.

Nope

You still don't 'get it'. You tend to think at a suburban scale, not pedestrian scale.

The Plaza was built in a suburban style. it's always had tons of parking, I would guess it's the least suburban it'd ever been today.

[earthling]

^Was thinking in terms of garages/properties that had TIF aid.

And the Plaza has been heading toward urbanization over time, less suburban. Now is the time for truly mixed use, especially mixing in some residential directly within.

[flyingember]

^Was thinking in terms of garages/properties that had TIF aid.

TIF has nothing to do with the city being able to interject itself in a private property sale

TIF affects taxes, not ownership

[earthling]

But perhaps for the garages that received TIF aid for public use. And any other public aid that may be broader than garages.

[flyingember]

And the Plaza has been heading toward urbanization over time, less suburban. Now is the time for truly mixed use, especially mixing in some residential directly within.

https://dnr.mo.gov/shpo/survey/JAAS072-R.pdf

It hasn't been heading towards urbanization, it began the same way it is today. It isn't time for mixed use, it began that way. It's also began as suburban, by being designed for the car (8 gas stations, though in total they probably equal one current QT)

By 1927 there were 1000 apartments next to it. The urban density you mention appeared in the area 100 years ago.


There's residential on the plaza already too. the Neptune Apartments are on the plaza (not plaza adjacent) and date to the 1960s. The "Save the Plaza" protests were about this building. there's more residential on the plaza directly to the west of it too. Not mixed use buildings, byut

As for retail Nichols died in 1950. The Plaza became mixed use in his lifetime with offices above the retail and entrances along the street. So it's been true mixed use for at least 70 years.

[earthling]

Housing separated to outer rings from retail isn't mixed use. Housing above retail generally is (or directly attached within same block).