Redeemer Fellowship Church in Westport to force businesses to relocate

[Cheffreygo]

There is no one else in that congregation that could start another church in another location?! There seem to be plenty of old buildings in the city where this church could be split in two and not tax one specific location.  

Good question. The church is actively assisting in other church plans throughout the city, including one in Waldo named New City Church and has encouraged members from that part of the city to consider joining.

[lock+load]

I see what you're saying, but "the city" isn't being treated as a charity project. How is it a bad thing to encourage people to move in, volunteer, and be a part of their communities for the betterment of the communities? You're taking me way out of context there.

But using this growth as an excuse to tear down a building housing functioning businesses is not for the betterment of the community.  Period.

[GRID]

This kind of stuff has got to stop.  Figure something out without tearing down KC's built environment for surface parking. That is so destructive.  Car pool, walk a few blocks, take max, have multiple services.  Don't tear down the city for surface parking.

I understand the church is a great asset to the city and they are committed to the city.  But if they are, then they will be able to explain to their congregation that parking is limited and that is just something they will have to deal with.

KC can't just keep tearing things down.  I still can't get over the fact that a viable apartment building is coming down on the plaza to make way for an office building when there are so many under utilized lots all over the city, including the plaza.

Grand looks terrible now with all the parking lots right on grand in the heart of downtown that were buildings not long ago.

Stop tearing things down to put up nothing or something less dense.  Just stop.  

Does KC really need mega churchs in the city anyway?  They draw suburbanites that demand the most convenient parking possible for an hour then they drive back the burbs.  I'm not sure that's a huge win for central KCMO if it comes with a price of urban fabric destruction.

[beautyfromashes]

Does KC really need mega churchs in the city anyway?  They draw suburbanites that demand the most convenient parking possible for an hour then they drive back the burbs.  I'm not sure that's a huge win for central KCMO if it comes with a price of urban fabric destruction.

I don't agree with this.  Anything that brings people into the city that normally wouldn't come in is a positive.  And you know that a lot of them will eventually have lunch on the Plaza or Westport and like it and realize that the city is a great, vibrant place to live and raise a family.  If some of these churches would start schools for their congregations that don't cost an arm and a leg then you might see even more people decide to stay or relocate here.

[GRID]

I don't agree with this.  Anything that brings people into the city that normally wouldn't come in is a positive.  And you know that a lot of them will eventually have lunch on the Plaza or Westport and like it and realize that the city is a great, vibrant place to live and raise a family.  If some of these churches would start schools for their congregations that don't cost an arm and a leg then you might see even more people decide to stay or relocate here.

I was talking about large churches in urban areas.  I think there is fine line there.  These churches once existed just fine without having 1200 space parking lots surrounding them.

I'm not sure how many people from the suburbs are going to eat in the city anyway.  It's just like anything else.  They'll do that when they get back to their suburban area.  So do you tear down the city where 5000 people live and depend on those servcies so 8 people might stop at the Cheesecake factory on Sunday for lunch??? 

[trailerkid]

Here is the contact info for the church:

Redeemer Fellowship
(816) 561-1301
http://www.facebook.com/RedeemerKC
http://twitter.com/redeemerkc
http://www.yelp.com/biz/redeemer-fellowship-kansas-city

[KCAppraiser]

Looks like the buildings are 14 and 16 Westport Rd and 3934 Main St.  All are located in the Southside Historic District which is on the national register of historic places.  3934 Main was approved for demo in 1998 but the permit was suspended.  There is also a notice on 3934 Main, CASE #250-S100  CONTINUED- CONSIDER KC REGISTER NOM from 10/14/10.  In all honesty, while not ideal, it wouldn't be the end of the world if 14 and 16 Westport were torn down but it would leave a huge hole if 3934 Main were too.  That would change the whole block into a surface lot desert.

[slimwhitman]

"We need to provide them parking in order to allow them into the kingdom of heaven."

I'm trying to be measured here, but your comment, and those of Pastor Cawley have flipped my "pissed off" switch.

Cawley says, "but the buildings are in bad shape and would cost too much to renovate".  OK, now my "bullshit" switch is flipped.

Cost too much to what, make into occupy-able space that has neighborhood serving small, independent businesses in place?

Almost without exception, when someone says "too much to renovate", it is shorthand (lying) for "we want to do something else with the land", and that's a long earned professional observation.

Good points.  I have watched many buildings get razed “because it would cost too much to renovate them”.  Well…..those are almost always half-truths.  The reality is that the building did not meet that current owner’s “program” for the site.   The President Hotel is an excellent example of this.  I spoke with an architect leading the programming of the ‘90s Power&Light project and he was 100% positive that the building was too far gone to save.  The entire team and owner agreed, and it was scheduled to be razed as part of the failed redevelopment project.  The reality was that it did not meet the current “program” for the project.  As we all know, the next Power&Light project found a way to incorporate the building into the program, thus making it “affordable” to save.  Now it is a glorious gem for the city.

Having belonged to a few hip urban churches and living in the suburbs while doing so, I will say that most other suburbanites that chose to go to a urban church, do so because they have a desire to worship and serve in the urban area, even though they don’t live there.  Like anyone, some will hang around and visit urban restaurants and retail while here, but others go straight home.  It is generally a good thing to bring them to the area.  Good urban churches are important for this purpose.  This church appears to have a genuine desire to serve the urban neighborhood around it.  That is great news!

I have also been a part of watching my urban church grow and saw the congregation and staff struggle with how to handle the parking problem associated with it.  It is a problem!  The easy answer is always to buy more land nearby, raze the structures and provide a parking lot for the facility.  Easy enough!

You will see churches all over midtown with tons of surface parking around them.  For decades and decades, church (or campus or hospital) leaders went through the same simple process of buying up land, stripping the land of structures and paving it over.  Any brain-dead fool can see that this is the best way to fix the churches immediate problem.

But…. sometimes we throw the baby out with the bathwater when we make these “obvious” decisions.  Look at some of these churches that chose to strip away the neighborhood around them to provide more parking.  They isolate themselves in a asphalt desert.  They also strip away the neighborhood they desire to help.  What was once an ideal location to serve the community, now becomes an isolated facility with a severed connection to the neighborhood it is trying to “serve”.

Last time I checked, pastors or priests are not city planners.  They are also often not plugged in to how the physical fabric of the neighborhood is directly related to the social fabric.  Erosion of the physical fabric will degrade the social fabric of the community they are serving…making their job that much harder.  They do not understand this and need to be educated.

If suitable parking cannot be found without razing important “physical urban fabric”, then the church is being an irresponsible neighbor.  The better answer might be to find a bigger vacant church in midtown (lord knows there are plenty) with ample parking and build the congregation there.  They could keep this smaller facility as a satellite worship center or sell it to a new emerging church or churchplant.  I noticed the Unity Church at 67th & Wornall is for sale (damn! It has no parking either!)

It seems this church’s leaders need to be educated about how these decisions are directly undermining their intentions.  Parking is important.  They want to increase their membership, like any church.  The more members, the bigger church community they are building to support their missions.  It also means more money to fund those mission needs.  All good things.  More parking seems to be the obvious way to accomplish this.  But it is not.  I hope someone in the church “sees the light”.

[ColumbusParkian]

I have heard of churches in other areas that have rented out parking lots within a reasonable distance for a shuttle to transport back and forth. Maybe the old Westport High parking lot???

[Cheffreygo]

After emailing with one of the pastors of the church about some of the feedback from the forum, he directed me to this statement:
-----------------------------------------
January 27, 2011, Kansas City, Mo
In reference to the January 26, 2011, Fox 4 news report titled “Church Forcing Some Westport Businesses to Move”:
Redeemer Fellowship is passionate about being good neighbors. We want to work with our neighborhood and our city to see our community become a better place to live. We are committed to this neighborhood for the long-haul and know that community change does not happen overnight. The ways our members are involved in the city are diverse, but as a church we have hosted the Westport Neighborhood Association in our building for over a year, and maintain a very close relationship with MainCor, the Kansas City Missouri School District, as well as many other community development organizations.
In 2008 Redeemer Fellowship acquired the property at 3921 Baltimore, Kansas City, Mo. Included with this acquisition were several rental properties: three spaces on Main St. and eight spaces on Westport Rd. Over the last several decades, the building containing the addresses 2, 6, 8, and 10 on Westport Rd has fallen into disrepair. This building was a later addition, and stands in contrast to the historical buildings that surround it. It is in need of such significant repairs that we could not hope to recover the costs in any reasonable amount of time.
In light of this, our property management company sent the tenants of 2, 6, 8 and 10 Westport Rd. non-renewal notices for their leases to prepare for the demolition of the property, which we expect will take place late this Spring. The Main St. spaces and 14, 16, and 18 Westport Rd. will not be affected, and we do not own the building of the dry cleaning business on the Northeast corner of Westport Rd. and Baltimore Ave. We have offered several of the tenants assistance as they seek to relocate within the neighborhood.
This Spring, we plan to host a group of graduate students from KU’s Urban Planning program who will research and propose potential uses of the space. As we consider possible uses, we will consider what would be best for our neighborhood and our city. We can say that no significant parking will be added, and that parking was not a consideration in making this decision.
In line with our mission statement as a church, we remain resolutely committed to God’s glory and the good of Kansas City. We trust that this decision, though difficult, will have a lasting and positive impact in our neighborhood.
With you for Midtown,
- Redeemer Fellowship
info@redeemerkansascity.org

[trailerkid]

I applaud their effort for damage control, yet there are some important questions.

Why did WDAF even mention the word "parking" in their reporting if that was never the case?

Why isn't there a plan to simply construct a new structure to replace the ones so supposedly in disrepair?

What is the cost of demo vs. the cost of repair?

Why would KU Urban Planning need to be involved for a site that was already adequately "urban" before being demolished?

[slimwhitman]

After emailing with one of the pastors of the church about some of the feedback from the forum, he directed me to this statement:
-----------------------------------------
January 27, 2011, Kansas City, Mo
In reference to the January 26, 2011, Fox 4 news report titled “Church Forcing Some Westport Businesses to Move”:

This PR submission is purely PR.  Been there, done that.  Unless the building is collapsing, there is no reason to punt paying renters out of a space unless they already have new plans for the property.  The buildings could be patched up cheaply if they really wanted to retain the buildings or tenants.
KC history is a good reminder that we should never tear down a (non-life threatening) building without a replacement plan already in place.

I applaud them if they want to replace these buildings with new ones.  But if that was the case, they would have some preliminary designs available.  This PR statement undermines the truth of their intentions.  Tell it like it is.  They should tell us what they really plan to do.  They don't want to, because it's not what we want to hear (more parking!).

[lock+load]

Pretty disappointed to see a church put out this PR spin.  Why don't they just sell the building or give it away?  It's clearly not integral to their main function, so why let it get in the way of the church's main purpose?

[Cheffreygo]

Here's the timeline of events I'm seeing here:

• Redeemer sends out lease non-renewal letters
• Angry tenant reaches out to Fox 4 (most sensationalistic station in the metro -- by far. I've seen this written dozens of times on this forum)
• Fox 4 grabs the story and runs a slanted and ill-prepared piece which does not properly represent the intent of the church
• Forum readers who listen to TKC and Fox 4 flood places like that with theories of corruption

And for those of you who criticize their statement -- What would have been a more appropriate course of action? Let Fox 4 tell the story for them?

[trailerkid]

There is a church rep on Yelp right now spinning their "plan" if anyone wants to get more interactive:

http://www.yelp.com/topic/kansas-city-r ... -neighbors

[trailerkid]

And for those of you who criticize their statement -- What would have been a more appropriate course of action? Let Fox 4 tell the story for them?

The church pastor told Fox 4 the space could be used for parking, but it was undecided what they'd do. That's a quotation from the story. I'm not sure what else you want.

[phuqueue]

what was there before the strip center?  seems like perhaps some historic structures were probably demolished for the strip center - and now we're demolishing the strip center for nothing. there is plenty of street parking within a reasonable distance. 

I have heard of churches in other areas that have rented out parking lots within a reasonable distance for a shuttle to transport back and forth. Maybe the old Westport High parking lot???

This is a big issue in my mind -- there's already a ton of parking in Westport as it is.  There are surface lots scattered all over the place, tons of street parking, a garage, etc.  Sunday morning isn't exactly peak hours for Westport, can't the church work out deals with owners of existing parking to use it?  Can an "urban" church just not stand to make its congregation walk a block?

In the past year or so the Cathedral Basilica in St. Louis, a few blocks from where I live, tore down an adjacent building and replaced it with a big shiny new parking lot.  And they had signs up touting the project as a "neighborhood improvement."  Bullshit, it's a church improvement, if it can be characterized as an improvement at all.  I don't give anyone props for talking big on urbanism or the city or the neighborhood if what they actually do is counterproductive.  The church can preach the city all it wants, but if it's going to tear down the city to meet its own needs ("needs," as if there isn't already tons of parking available anyway), there's no reason its "mission" should be privileged over anyone else's as some sort of balancing factor here.  The city needs tax revenue as much as it needs some damn church but nobody acts like this redeems any business that decides to tear down a functional building.  There's a lot of things that could be done with that land and building a parking lot is just about the worst one.

[mean]

And for those of you who criticize their statement -- What would have been a more appropriate course of action? Let Fox 4 tell the story for them?

1) Come up with a plan that involved replacing the building in question and, ideally, retaining the tenants if possible.
2) THEN send a letter to the tenants informing them of what was happening.
3) Proceed with the plan.

The only thing which makes me wary is the church's willingness to evict the businesses and tear down the building before coming up with a plan.

[mlind]

The lovely old churches were built in urban areas because that's where people lived - maybe they walked or drove or took the streetcar.  When the church I attended moved from near downtown KCK to 40th & Victory Drive in the 1950's, it included a very large parking lot.  I was just a kid, so I don't know what was there before - maybe houses since it was a residential area. 

Hospitals and universities are huge offenders when it comes to gobbling up property for more buildings and parking. And, in California, public universities don't pay property taxes. 

Often neighbors complain about hospital employees/visitors parking on residential streets.  In San Francisco/Oakland/Berkeley, this has lead to permit parking that limits non-residents to 2 hours. 

There are only two solutions - a strong city permit process for demolition/new construction or citizens who raise a big stink.  These type of problems in San Francisco/Oakland/Berkeley have lead to strong neighborhood and/or local business association who march on city hall.  They wield a lot of power. 

So, it comes back to that old slogan 'Power to the People'.

[Midtownkid]

Why can't they park in the giant parking lot across the street at Osco?  It that still unoccupied?  KC needs to STOP TEARING DOWN old buildings.

Are we talking about these attractive buildings:


Or just this shingled building.  That building is actually pretty ugly and if replaced by a new building, would not be bad at all.


They are probably going to put in a small strip of grass and some parking.  A place for bums to sleep and trash to gather.