Uptown Shoppes

Discuss items in the urban core outside of Downtown as described above. Everything in the core including the east side (18th & Vine area), Northeast, Plaza, Westport, Brookside, Valentine, Waldo, 39th street, & the entire midtown area.
earthling
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Re: Uptown Shoppes

Post by earthling »

Midtown main drags used to be very pedestrian friendly (even though single family homes) and can somewhat easily be restored if the attitude and direction is established with developers. Yes, cars should be 3rd class citizens. I'm not talking about no parking in this spot. I'm talking about the surface lot facing Valentine rather than Broadway - that's the balance but with pedestrian priority. It also makes more sense to safely direct the car traffic to get onto Broadway via the Valentine stoplight rather than directly from the lot onto Broadway.

Midtown absolutely should pursue urban friendly design, which means pedestrians are highest priority, bikes/scooters second and cars third. But unfortunately very few in Midtown feel that way, which you are validating. And that's too bad because it's more than halfway there but urban supporters have to nitpick every development to maintain that rule of thumb.

I'm not criticizing you in particular for 'not caring' as you put it. But I do find it unfortunate that many in Midtown also feel the way you do. Can't urbanize Midtown to where it used to be if the desire isn't there. The result will be half-assed semi urban developments like this or worse, more suburban style strip malls and mega QuickTrips.

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Re: Uptown Shoppes

Post by WSPanic »

KC used to be more pedestrian-friendly as a whole because that's how society was. I don't get why you get to define the "ideal" - as it seems to ignore a large part of the population. Development isn't going to drive new behavior. Behavior is going to drive new development.

As a resident and tax payer in the neighborhood, that corner has been a shithole for 20 years. I think Mesob is the only place I've been to in that thing more than three times. The "anything is better" isn't my ideal either. I guess it just gets me a lot closer to where I want to be - and leaves you further away.

earthling
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Re: Uptown Shoppes

Post by earthling »

^Many cities are expanding their urbanity more than KC tries, Midtown isn't as much due to car mentality. If Midtown treats cars as a priority, suburban leaving developments like strip malls will continue and surface lots will continue along pedestrian stretches. Sad.

But back to this project. A simple shift facing the surface lot towards Valentine rather than Broadway would provide a wonderful contiguous pedestrian stretch from Armour to the Uptown stretch. Such a small change would make a big improvement from a pedestrian perspective. Not nitpicking with such small change is how we end up with half-assed 'good enough'. It's worth at least trying for pedestrian friendly proponents.

Is fine if many don't care but interesting that you're essentially discouraging it.

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grovester
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Re: Uptown Shoppes

Post by grovester »

WSPanic wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:45 pm
KC used to be more pedestrian-friendly as a whole because that's how society was. I don't get why you get to define the "ideal" - as it seems to ignore a large part of the population. Development isn't going to drive new behavior. Behavior is going to drive new development.

As a resident and tax payer in the neighborhood, that corner has been a shithole for 20 years. I think Mesob is the only place I've been to in that thing more than three times. The "anything is better" isn't my ideal either. I guess it just gets me a lot closer to where I want to be - and leaves you further away.
What new behaviour? The parking is in back instead of the front?

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Re: Uptown Shoppes

Post by flyingember »

earthling wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:17 pm
Midtown main drags used to be very pedestrian friendly (even though single family homes) and can somewhat easily be restored if the attitude and direction is established with developers. Yes, cars should be 3rd class citizens. I'm not talking about no parking in this spot. I'm talking about the surface lot facing Valentine rather than Broadway - that's the balance but with pedestrian priority. It also makes more sense to safely direct the car traffic to get onto Broadway via the Valentine stoplight rather than directly from the lot onto Broadway.

Midtown absolutely should pursue urban friendly design, which means pedestrians are highest priority, bikes/scooters second and cars third. But unfortunately very few in Midtown feel that way, which you are validating. And that's too bad because it's more than halfway there but urban supporters have to nitpick every development to maintain that rule of thumb.

I'm not criticizing you in particular for 'not caring' as you put it. But I do find it unfortunate that many in Midtown also feel the way you do. Can't urbanize Midtown to where it used to be if the desire isn't there. The result will be half-assed semi urban developments like this or worse, more suburban style strip malls and mega QuickTrips.
You're still not getting it. You're changing *which* pedestrians would have priority.

That corner has been a parking lot since at least 1955. The shopping center dates to between 59 and 63.

The shopping center is facing the parking lot but by having the building on the back side of the lot it was easier to walk to from the neighborhood behind it where everyone in the homes lived historically. By having the new building facing the back side of the lot encourages infill development in the neighborhood which will be far more affordable than apartment buildings on parking lots along Broadway.

It also keeps cars out of the neighborhood. Think of what it means to the neighborhood scale to put dramatically more cars on Pennsylvania and Valentine vs putting the main entrance on a four lane road?

earthling
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Re: Uptown Shoppes

Post by earthling »

I was specific to pedestrians walking down Broadway. Making Broadway a pedestrian friendly street. It's on a path to get there but not with the design proposed. Surface lots along main pedestrian stretches are a major urban design no-no.

Auto entrance is already along Valentine, not back to Penn. No change. Auto entrance using Valentine light (via Broadway) is safer for both pedestrians and cars than entrance on Broadway (with no light). No change for the neighborhood behind it.

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grovester
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Re: Uptown Shoppes

Post by grovester »

flyingember wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:35 am

You're still not getting it. You're changing *which* pedestrians would have priority.

That corner has been a parking lot since at least 1955. The shopping center dates to between 59 and 63.

The shopping center is facing the parking lot but by having the building on the back side of the lot it was easier to walk to from the neighborhood behind it where everyone in the homes lived historically. By having the new building facing the back side of the lot encourages infill development in the neighborhood which will be far more affordable than apartment buildings on parking lots along Broadway.

It also keeps cars out of the neighborhood. Think of what it means to the neighborhood scale to put dramatically more cars on Pennsylvania and Valentine vs putting the main entrance on a four lane road?
Nobody is walking from the neighborhoods to the Uptown Shoppes these days, they are crossing the parking lot to get to the desirable businesses along Broadway. One of the reasons those storefronts have been failing since the 80s, besides Larry, is their orientation to Broadway. Also, the street behind the Shoppes is not very appealing after dark, poor lighting with Broadway blocked by the parking structure. A parking lot back there would be an improvement.

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taxi
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Re: Uptown Shoppes

Post by taxi »

I, for one, would like a pleasant experience when I'm walking to get some crab after having sold some plasma. Is that too much to ask?

earthling
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Re: Uptown Shoppes

Post by earthling »

Joking aside... As apt upgrades grow in the area, business/retail upgrades will follow. Armour used to be known as sex offender row with Section 8 buildings and is now among the most desirable stretches in Midtown after the market rate upgrades.

Developments also have 50-100 year impacts. A design that doesn't think about street experience like this ends up interrupting the pedestrian experience of what could become a great lively stretch in 5 years. The stripmall across the corner (Sprint store) with parking in front also ideally would be redeveloped.

The Uptown Theatre area has the potential to become a notable city hotspot destination (moreso than W39th) and new projects should be designed with that in mind. There's opportunity for Broadway from Westport Rd to Armour to become a nice contiguous pedestrian friendly stretch in 10 years or so. Won't happen if the vision isn't there or if no one cares.

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Re: Uptown Shoppes

Post by chaglang »

flyingember wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:35 am
The shopping center is facing the parking lot but by having the building on the back side of the lot it was easier to walk to from the neighborhood behind it where everyone in the homes lived historically.
Bollocks. The building is sited where it is because it's the most visible and easiest access for cars. Locating the shopping center on the Broadway corner would have made the walk from the neighborhood longer by roughly 90 seconds. If the developers were concerned about the neighborhood at all I suspect they would not have located a parking ditch and loading docks along Valentine.

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Re: Uptown Shoppes

Post by flyingember »

chaglang wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:29 pm
Bollocks. The building is sited where it is because it's the most visible and easiest access for cars. Locating the shopping center on the Broadway corner would have made the walk from the neighborhood longer by roughly 90 seconds. If the developers were concerned about the neighborhood at all I suspect they would not have located a parking ditch and loading docks along Valentine.
The original developer did exactly what they should have in the context of the city.

Remember that the way the city was designed is the N-S streets are meant to move people quickly across the city. They're closer together to provide more paths. You move quickly south from downtown, turn onto your closest E-W major street every 4 blocks or so and then move into your neighborhood.
ex. Broadway, Main, Oak/Gillham, Troost, Prospect, Paseo, Cleveland. 18th, 22nd, 27th, 31st, 35th 39th, 47th, etc

The entry to the business should be on these streets in this model. So the parking entry is exactly where it should be in the post-war car model.

Now, I see your point that the development model should change, but the existing building was built exactly where it should have been.

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chaglang
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Re: Uptown Shoppes

Post by chaglang »

So the building wasn’t sited for ease of neighborhood access. Glad we agree.

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Re: Uptown Shoppes

Post by flyingember »

chaglang wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:24 pm
So the building wasn’t sited for ease of neighborhood access. Glad we agree.
Sure it was. In 1960 most people living in midtown would have driven there. (it doesn't matter if they really would have, it was 1960 car culture) A tiny minority of customers would have lived directly west.

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Re: Uptown Shoppes

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Re: Uptown Shoppes

Post by WSPanic »

johnmatrix wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:52 am
https://cityscenekc.com/uptown-hotel-pr ... idtown-kc/


Interesting....
At least I know what happened to Banks Floodman.

Wonder what Marriott brand they applied with.... Aloft is probably a bit much to ask for. They've got around 30 flags these days - who knows...

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beautyfromashes
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Re: Uptown Shoppes

Post by beautyfromashes »

Mesob closing for the construction. No replacement location yet.

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Critical_Mass
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Re: Uptown Shoppes

Post by Critical_Mass »

WSPanic wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:01 am
Wonder what Marriott brand they applied with.... Aloft is probably a bit much to ask for. They've got around 30 flags these days - who knows...
the site plan showed Moxy as the brand

nickyrosstheboss
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Re: Uptown Shoppes

Post by nickyrosstheboss »

I would just be amazed if they would actually start construction on any of the projects down broadway.....

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Re: Uptown Shoppes

Post by langosta »

johnmatrix wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:52 am
https://cityscenekc.com/uptown-hotel-pr ... idtown-kc/


Interesting....
Image

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Re: Uptown Shoppes

Post by mykn »

Construction fence is going up around existing buildings.

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