Targeting remaining large surface lots downtown

[ignatius]

It's great to see the largest obnoxious surface lot being dealt with at the site of P&L/arena but there are still 3 big daddies left.

Perhaps we could get a hold of contacts and push the owners to do something with them.

1)  7th/Wyandotte area E of The Phoenix
I think DST owns this.  A new ballpark was proposed and I've seen lowrise development renderings.

2) 20th/Grand across for Abdiana/Firestone building
Assurant owns this for employee parking.  They could build a garage there with streetfront retail.  It's a massive ugliness in Xroads.

3) 5th//Walnut/Main next to Minsky's and across the street
I think the City or City Market owns this.  With the huge market momentum, it is time for these two spots to be converted to  free city garages w/streetfront retail.


Anyone have contacts?  Perhaps we could send some suggestions to the owners.

[LenexatoKCMO]

i voted for the xroads lot.  I think this lot is the worst due to the fact that it seems to impose a big demarcation between the renaisance areas of the xroads and the areas that never get attention.  Nobody ever wanders past this giant lot and it shows - just look at whats east of it.  It is a giant roadblock that keeps the momentum from moving East. 

[staubio]

I voted for the River Market lot.  Of the options, this is the only lot that is smack dab in the hottest, most central spot in the neighborhood.  You've got all of the charm on Delaware and the City Market square with a big, ugly lot between.  The Market is already replete with parking lots.  In such a compact urban district that could become one of the hottest in the nation, we've got a big hole on both sides of the street at this spot.  The lot is a mess on busy days and sits empty most others. 

It is time for the River Market to consolidate its public parking into a well-constructed free parking structure, perhaps at the 3rd and Grand site.  This could function as parking for events at Berkely Park, park and ride for the ATA, Steamboat Arabia, City Market, Cold Storage and other area users.  We could then better develop the interior and keep the cars on the outside edges.

As bad as the Crossroads location is, it is still on the edge of the hottest areas in the district.  It is a dead spot on the edge, but eventually development all around it should dictate its development.  The River Market is already crowding the lot there and something needs to be done with it.

[staubio]

Man, look at this.  Makes me sick.

[Long]

If I have to choose between "garages with streetfront retail" versus just keeping the surface lots until an actual development comes along, I'll wait for an actual development.

That said, I vote for 20th and Grand plus 17th and Grand.  Infilling these blocks would really strengthen Grand from downtown to Crown Center.  Infilling the others would be nice, and should be done, but I think infilling Grand would serve a greater overall purpose.

[KCPowercat]

the 7th & Wyandotte area to Main is my biggest complaint....I think they are owned by DST and tower realty (commerce)

[Tosspot]

In my opinion, those parking morasses on Grand are the most blighted of parking lots in the city; that whole area just has a completely downtrodden and trashy feel to it. And the state of the River Market is just sad; it's one of our most notable districts, yet so much of it sits undeveloped so people can park their cars there.

[kevink]

It is time for the River Market to consolidate its public parking into a well-constructed free parking structure, perhaps at the 3rd and Grand site.  This could function as parking for events at Berkely Park, park and ride for the ATA, Steamboat Arabia, City Market, Cold Storage and other area users.  We could then better develop the interior and keep the cars on the outside edges.

They all need it, but here's a vote for River Market. Bury a new garage behind a liner of usable buildings along 5th Street and a re-opened Main Street, and something facing the dogpoop park on the north. Then, actually charge market rates for parking, on the garage and the street. We could do 2 hours free in the garage, which would cover the vast majority of market visitors, and charge for everything else, you know, as if economics were actually involved in the parking business. Use the proceeds for streetscaping/security/cleaning in River Market alone.

[dangerboy]

I hope this doesn't sound too Republican, but I think the market will eventually start fixing the surface lot problem.  The inventory of buildings available for renovation/conversion continues to shrink and new construction is beginning to emerge.  Once the remaning vacant lots are filled, the parking lots will be next.  Assuming that the momentum of Downtown growth continues, there will eventually be a day when the owners of surface lots can make more money selling to developers than continuing to collect two dollars for asphalt rental.

The key will be a high level master plan (i.e. Sasaki) to identify which lots to develop and which ones to bank for future uses like the ballpark and such.

[ignatius]

^I'm thinking that in some cases, lot owners could use a little nudge.  That Xroads lot probably has quite a bit a value now.  The owner of it may have not even considered any plans.  They may have no clue of MODESA.  If we have a contact, we could maybe influence them with some ideas.

BTW, anyone know what it costs to build a 200-300 car garage?

[KC0KEK]

Are the amount of surface lots driven mainly by city code requirements for having X number of parking spaces for every square foot of commerical, retail or industrial space?

[kevink]

BTW, anyone know what it costs to build a 200-300 car garage?

It depends---  The cheapest is probably a precast carage, at around $7,500/space. That has to be hidden behind stuff, b/c it is very bare bones and ugly. Start adding better materials, storefronts on the ground, or dealing with an inefficient site, and it can easily run up to $15,000/space. Underground parking is even more.

[Long]

Are the amount of surface lots driven mainly by city code requirements for having X number of parking spaces for every square foot of commerical, retail or industrial space?

I think the amount of surface lots are driven by people that buy run-down buildings, bulldoze them, pave it over, and charge $3/day to the boatloads of people that are willing to pay it.

[KC0KEK]

I think the amount of surface lots are driven by people that buy run-down buildings, bulldoze them, pave it over, and charge $3/day to the boatloads of people that are willing to pay it.

Right, I'm sure that that's one reason for surface lots. But look at what's going on in the suburbs. For example, the parking lot of the Target in Mission is almost always three-quarters empty even when the store is busy. Those kinds of oversized parking lots are driven by code requirements rather than the developer's or retailer's needs. I have a tough time believing that the downtown isn't afflicted by similarly silly codes that drive unsightly and unnecessary surface parking.

[voltopt]

Right, I'm sure that that's one reason for surface lots. But look at what's going on in the suburbs. For example, the parking lot of the Target in Mission is almost always three-quarters empty even when the store is busy. Those kinds of oversized parking lots are driven by code requirements rather than the developer's or retailer's needs. I have a tough time believing that the downtown isn't afflicted by similarly silly codes that drive unsightly and unnecessary surface parking.

you are right, but from what i understand with large retail centers, the notion is to make the parking lot look empty even if the store is busy. 
if the parking lot doesn't look completely full, there is a greater attraction to shop there, because you won't have to wait in line or search too hard for a parking spot.    a great example is the home depot on main.  That lot will never be completely full (NEVER, unless they have spirit fest behind Costco...)  so joe blow driving down main street will see it empty and stop in.  Large Box Retailers REQUIRE it.  its a terrible scenario when parking is the driving factor in development (no pun intended)  City codes do not help when it comes to smaller scale shops and developments. 

[KC0KEK]

from what i understand with large retail centers, the notion is to make the parking lot look empty even if the store is busy. 
if the parking lot doesn't look completely full, there is a greater attraction to shop there, because you won't have to wait in line or search too hard for a parking spot.    a great example is the home depot on main.  That lot will never be completely full (NEVER, unless they have spirit fest behind Costco...)  so joe blow driving down main street will see it empty and stop in.  Large Box Retailers REQUIRE it. 

Interesting. I never looked at it that way when going someplace to shop, but I could see developers and retailers buying into that.

[voltopt]

^I'm thinking that in some cases, lot owners could use a little nudge.  That Xroads lot probably has quite a bit a value now.  The owner of it may have not even considered any plans.  They may have no clue of MODESA.  If we have a contact, we could maybe influence them with some ideas.

BTW, anyone know what it costs to build a 200-300 car garage?

according to tax records, the lot on Grand is 1907 Grand Boulevard, and is owned by Fortis, located at 2323 Grand.
Appraised 2005 at $584,982 and assessed at $187,195.

(is it okay to post tax records?  its public information, right?

[ignatius]

^Interesting.  Fortis is now apparently Asurrant BTW.  They could build a garage with tax breaks and have streetfront ameneties for employees that the neighborhood could also use... A dry cleaner, health club and wraps joint could probably be successful in such a garage with the Western Auto complex nearby and Abdiana likely going residential.  An urbane QuickTrip that doesn't do gas could work too.  Gallery owners probably would stick to nearby old buildings but no reason galleries couldn't go in such small garage retail pads as well.

[Long]

Interesting. I never looked at it that way when going someplace to shop, but I could see developers and retailers buying into that.

I bet you do . . . think about when you're out Christmas shopping and the parking lots are full.

[Long]

One thing I'd like to see re-thought is how parking structures are incorporated into a plan for a block. . .  Start by dividing a block into three parts instead of the traditional two (building, alley, building).  Put the parking structure in the center of the block, then wrap the real building around it.  Obviously the building would then only be 30-40 feet deep instead of the 100+ it is now in a conventional city block, but then a building would just be longer across the street facade and not as deep (an advantage to this layout would be more rooms in a building could have windows, because more of the occupiable space in on an exterior wall instead of buried in the middle of the block)

What I keep coming back to though, is that some of you are putting the cart before the horse.  Someone else said it-- be a republican, let the market demand infill the lots.  You can't just expect someone with a huge surface lot to build themselves a garage, then just give away the rest of the land.  And you should build parking garages to meet demand, not just to create a streetscape.  A parking garage, just like a high-rise, is a solution to a problem-- that problem being not a great enough supply of land to fill the demand.  Sure, sometimes you see a high-rise and a parking garage in the middle of a greenfield, but ultimately I think that is the exception, not the rule.  If the demand isn't there and you build a parking garage in the middle of a big surface lot, you're just going to end up with a parking garage in the middle of a big surface lot.