Pre-demolition permit for Italian Gardens

[Critical_Mass]

Has the streetfront retail aspect for this garage been removed?  I don't see how any retail could possibly fit on the street level.  The floor to floor height is too low for anything to be put in.  Anyone else noticed this or wants to go by and confirm??

[KCPowercat]

I haven't heard of it's removal...maybe the store fronts will have entrances a little below street level?  They do look kind of short.

[voltopt]

Has the streetfront retail aspect for this garage been removed?  I don't see how any retail could possibly fit on the street level.  The floor to floor height is too low for anything to be put in.  Anyone else noticed this or wants to go by and confirm??

Critical Mass - good to see you on here again!
It does seem like the street level space of this garage was designed for "vertically challenged" people.  is the retail gone?

[MidtownCat]

Wow.  Retail space at street level, the only redeeming quality of this otherwise useless piece of garbage, may have been removed from the project?

Can't wait to hear the outcome of this one.

[tat2kc]

Yes MidtownCat, there is such a drastic shortage of vacant retail space downtown.

Maybe we ought to try to fill the current retail spaces before we keep clamoring for more. It seems to me that we already have enough vacant spaces downtown. Although, more vacant storefronts does add to that deserted, all alone vibe you can get sometimes.

[lock+load]

Yes MidtownCat, there is such a drastic shortage of vacant retail space downtown.

Maybe we ought to try to fill the current retail spaces before we keep clamoring for more. It seems to me that we already have enough vacant spaces downtown. Although, more vacant storefronts does add to that deserted, all alone vibe you can get sometimes.

How short sighted.  Many things can be done with a space while it's waiting to be leased.  It is much less likely new space will be created in an existing garage when the demand arrives.

I feel much less alone walking past a street level parking faclity than an empty storefront

[tat2kc]

So, the building owners need to build space that will sit vacant for no telling how long, in the hopes that sometime sooner or later, the demand will be there to lease the space.  If you want to configure the space so that it can be converted to retail space as demand warrants, thats fine. But I fail to see the overriding obsession to create new vacant retail space all over downtown when there are already tens of thousands of square feet of retail space sitting empty and rotting right now. Building new retail space using tax incentives, and then having to use more public moneys to support the retail in that space, if you can find someone to rent the space, is a huge waste of money. If you insist on using tax dollars for retail downtown, in addition to whats already being spent in the P&L district, then use the money to renovate and fill the vacant spaces we already have.

Most people on here bitch and moan about the suburbs building new retail in greenfields, and abanonding existing buidlings.  We're doing the same damn thing downtown. I think the P&L district, and the east village are great projects, and well worth the money. But in other areas of the loop, we need to hold down the new construction and put more emphasis in renovating those structures that can be saved, and get the existing retails spaces to a point that they are attractive to new businesses. 

So what if the garage where the Italian Gardens might not have retails?  Instead of bitching about lack of NEW retail space in that area, spend some of that  TIF money renovating the EXISTING retail spaces that are near that garage.

[Long]

If you want to configure the space so that it can be converted to retail space as demand warrants, thats fine.

ok, so, if the people that are "bitching" would have worded their bitch in this way, we can pretty much disregard your whole rant, right?

The problem is, it appears they didn't even build the ceiling high enough to accommodate a future renovation into retail.  As you say, we have to hold down the new construction and direct that money to renovation of existing space.  But that isn't really what is in question.  The issue is not the distribution of funds between new construction and renovation, the issue is that the funds allocated to new construction are not being spent as responsibly as they could have.  If that garage is built with no room for retail, the only way there will ever be a continuous strip of retail along that street is if a lot of money is spent.  The garage will probably have to be torn down, and that likely won't happen for a long time, so there will be a gap between both ends of that block.  And that gap will affect the property value and the performance of that block as viable retail.  Your neighbor has a big impact on the value of your property.

[tat2kc]

You can disregard my rants anytime you feel like it.

[kcdcchef]

So, the building owners need to build space that will sit vacant for no telling how long, in the hopes that sometime sooner or later, the demand will be there to lease the space.  If you want to configure the space so that it can be converted to retail space as demand warrants, thats fine. But I fail to see the overriding obsession to create new vacant retail space all over downtown when there are already tens of thousands of square feet of retail space sitting empty and rotting right now. Building new retail space using tax incentives, and then having to use more public moneys to support the retail in that space, if you can find someone to rent the space, is a huge waste of money. If you insist on using tax dollars for retail downtown, in addition to whats already being spent in the P&L district, then use the money to renovate and fill the vacant spaces we already have.

Most people on here bitch and moan about the suburbs building new retail in greenfields, and abanonding existing buidlings.  We're doing the same damn thing downtown. I think the P&L district, and the east village are great projects, and well worth the money. But in other areas of the loop, we need to hold down the new construction and put more emphasis in renovating those structures that can be saved, and get the existing retails spaces to a point that they are attractive to new businesses. 

So what if the garage where the Italian Gardens might not have retails?  Instead of bitching about lack of NEW retail space in that area, spend some of that  TIF money renovating the EXISTING retail spaces that are near that garage.

i like this post tat, makes perfect sense. there is WAY more vacant retail exsisting in dtkc already then will be constructed and filled in the p&l, which has it's own merits. cuppini's, planet sub, stuff in the crossroads, retail and restaurant spaces are already getting filled near the core in anticipation of it coming back to life, and feeding off the xroads vibe. but, when the p&l is built, and full, there will still be WAY more retail in dt sitting vacant then will be added. so, everytime we build something new that does not have a ground level retail to it, is no reason to panic. there will still be a BUTTLOAD of empty lots and buildings needing rehabbed in the cbd, so chill.

you guys all cite other cities as your example, give me a break. i spent plenty of time in other cities this year, and can tell you for a FACT that they have plenty of newer buildings, and older ones, with no ground level retail. hell, so does new york. so get over it.

[macnw]

Don't you know we are creating utopia in downtown kansas city. Everything has to be perfect or else.....
Something bad will happen! Not sure what, but something!

[loftguy]

I'm a pretty informed observer, when it comes to property inventory downtown and I don't understand the opinions that indicate that we have abundant retail sitting idle in the marketplace.  There are vacant buildings scattered from the river to 31st street, but the reasons they are empty have little to do with the desire by retailers and others to bring them to life.  Many are in the hands of developers and/or speculators.
People who are in process of development, or are sitting on an asset waiting for someone to offer them too much money for their property.

We should, as a community, not allow another parking garage to be built that does not present a retail face to the pedestrian, or some similar interactive and positive experience.  Basic city development and reasonably informed developers are aware.  Others have to be brought to the program.

[KCDowntown]

I would just like to point out that the developers said there would be a day spa on the ground floor of this building when it was selling the plan to the DNA.

The Barkley garage at 18th & Baltimore has the same low look to it and I know that a restaurant is going into that space.

KCDowntown

[staubio]

Someone can swoop in and tell me that I'm wrong, but I doubt it takes a lot more to build retail space into the garage than to just build the garage.  The develop pulled a bait and switch in this case.  Yes, it could sit empty for awhile, but without building with consideration for the future, some rather destructive modifications would have to occur.  In fact, as a precast structure, I bet they'd have to tear it all out if they wanted to build retail space.  Building a space that is flexible enough to allow retail to be added doesn't hurt anything and has nothing to do with the current retail situation downtown.  It is forward thinking and it provides a design that at least allows the garage to be harmonious with the urban ideal. 

Development in the CBD isn't at all analagous to greenfield development on the fringes.  In the CBD, we've got a defined and finite amount of space and we should be building in that space with our goals in mind.  Leaving some space for retail honors this consideration and I don't see what harm it does.

[MidtownCat]

I would just like to point out that the developers said there would be a day spa on the ground floor of this building when it was selling the plan to the DNA.

That's precisely what I find troublesome.

I attended the meeting, voted on the measure, specifically because along with the parking, the plan was clearly to integrate retail spaces at street level and was to contribute a substantial sum of money to streetscape improvements.

The day spa was to serve the adjacent Hotel Phillips and would have been a great asset for downtown dwellers.

If they indeed do not include retail in the plan, it's not only a gross misrepresentation but a clear cut example of "bait and switch" for those that were supposed to have had a legitimate voice in the matter with the DNA vote.

Anybody from the DNA want to weigh in on this?

[Long]

i like this post tat, makes perfect sense. there is WAY more vacant retail exsisting in dtkc already then will be constructed and filled in the p&l, which has it's own merits. cuppini's, planet sub, stuff in the crossroads, retail and restaurant spaces are already getting filled near the core in anticipation of it coming back to life, and feeding off the xroads vibe. but, when the p&l is built, and full, there will still be WAY more retail in dt sitting vacant then will be added. so, everytime we build something new that does not have a ground level retail to it, is no reason to panic. there will still be a BUTTLOAD of empty lots and buildings needing rehabbed in the cbd, so chill.

you guys all cite other cities as your example, give me a break. i spent plenty of time in other cities this year, and can tell you for a FACT that they have plenty of newer buildings, and older ones, with no ground level retail. hell, so does new york. so get over it.

The building will be fine without retail, and plenty of other cities do it, and the world doesn't end.  Something happens that isn't ideal, so we explain it away and put it behind us and life goes on.

But being able to say its okay after the fact doesn't relieve us of the responsibility to do what is right whenever we have the opportunity.  Will it be a huge deal that this space doesn't have retail?  Not really.  Would it have been better with it?  Yes.  This was new construction, and there was no reason not to at least accommodate the potential for a future build-out.  Well, no reason except short-term financial gain (though at the expense of lost potential for long-term earnings), and maybe CCS doesn't want retail space that would "compete" with its own building.  It could even have been designed to park cars in the meantime. 

Retail space built into this garage has absolutely nothing to do with existing buildings that need to be rehabbed.  Two different issues completely.  Its just a way of rationalizing the developer's decision to not do the right thing.

[Long]

The Barkley garage at 18th & Baltimore has the same low look to it and I know that a restaurant is going into that space.

KCDowntown

That's a good point-- has anyone actually verified that the new garage won't have room for retail?

[scooterj]

The Barkley garage at 18th & Baltimore has the same low look to it and I know that a restaurant is going into that space.

Admittedly for a while I thought they had pulled the bait and switch on us with the Barkley garage but now you can clearly see the framing for the retail spaces going in -- what had previuously seemed too small to accomadate such space was in fact an illusion.

[LenexatoKCMO]

Do we really even know whether the lower level development has actually been scratched?  Has there been anything remotely confirming that Phillips has scratched their plan to stick a spa in there?  Granted, I haven't been by to look at the site for awhile but I wouldn't take it for certain that the spa is out just because the lower aperture looks narrow.  When they first errected the structure for the Barkley Evergreen Garage I looked at it and thought there was no way they could fit a store front in the narrow aperture there but sure enough, the last time I walked by they were shoe horning doorways into the front.  No need to disect the ramifications of not building a store front when we don't even know what is or isn't going on.  

Edit - I guess I type too slow - good call Long and Scooter

[lock+load]

Driving by this garage, it appears that the street leve space is separated from the rest of the garage.  So, retail may still be in the works.