Capping the Loop

[AlkaliAxel]

it has a.) the amenities like the pond, the tennis courts, the rose garden, etc.

You mean like a pond, tennis courts, Liberty Memorial, WW1 Museum, view of the skyline, Scout statue, softball fields, skatepark, dog park, fountain, theatre like already exist in PVP park? Or the non-existent amenities in North Loop you wouldn't have room to build?

b.) it's a tight compact rectangle so it's simple to understand and walk around

How would an at-grade North Loop park be easy to get around when you have to stop every 100 feet to cross traffic?

I will concede the point that Loose Park is less confusing to walk around than PVP but that's nothing some signage wouldn't fix.

Also, weird that you would criticize PVP as being sprawl but lionize Loose Park, a former country club in the heart of the original auto-focused suburb.

The fact you mentioned all of the amenities that PVP has and yet it's still not a vibrant park is exactly the point I'm making.

PVP is just not a great park no matter how much gets put into it. The things in it are far too spread a part, like sprawl. We need something more compact and more centrally located. I just don't think PVP will ever really be the park we want because of that, no matter what you do to it. It just really feels more like an open grassland and that's why nobody goes. Loose is in a sprawl location too yes, but the park I want at North Loop wouldn't be. Compact, centrally located is what I'd prefer.

I tried attaching renderings of the north loop park but the thread isn't allowing it. I think that would help present the park alot better than me having to describe it by word.

[TheBigChuckbowski]

it has a.) the amenities like the pond, the tennis courts, the rose garden, etc.

You mean like a pond, tennis courts, Liberty Memorial, WW1 Museum, view of the skyline, Scout statue, softball fields, skatepark, dog park, fountain, theatre like already exist in PVP park? Or the non-existent amenities in North Loop you wouldn't have room to build?

b.) it's a tight compact rectangle so it's simple to understand and walk around

How would an at-grade North Loop park be easy to get around when you have to stop every 100 feet to cross traffic?

I will concede the point that Loose Park is less confusing to walk around than PVP but that's nothing some signage wouldn't fix.

Also, weird that you would criticize PVP as being sprawl but lionize Loose Park, a former country club in the heart of the original auto-focused suburb.

The fact you mentioned all of the amenities that PVP has and yet it's still not a vibrant park is exactly the point I'm making.

PVP is just not a great park no matter how much gets put into it. The things in it are far too spread a part, like sprawl. We need something more compact and more centrally located. I just don't think PVP will ever really be the park we want because of that, no matter what you do to it. It just really feels more like an open grassland and that's why nobody goes. Loose is in a sprawl location too yes, but the park I want at North Loop wouldn't be. Compact, centrally located is what I'd prefer.

I tried attaching renderings of the north loop park but the thread isn't allowing it. I think that would help present the park alot better than me having to describe it by word.

Have you ever actually been to PVP on a nice weekend? Or, hell, during an event like Celebration at the Station? It can get pretty crowded. Not sure why you think no one goes there. And, not sure why a park needs to be compact, you don't have to use the entire park every time you go there for it to be a draw. Also, didn't this whole conversation start when you compared North Loop to Central Park, which is substantially bigger than PVP?

The problem isn't what's there, the problem is the design and its connection to surrounding neighborhoods. Something that can be easily overcome with street improvements we should do anyway, much easier than building a park from scratch that would just be a bunch of separated blocks. We can build that with a South Loop cap and it would be a better location for it and probably a better park. North Loop's potential is not as a park (but I would argue for a narrow linear park using the ROW) but as development that reconnects RM and CP to downtown.

[AlkaliAxel]

You mean like a pond, tennis courts, Liberty Memorial, WW1 Museum, view of the skyline, Scout statue, softball fields, skatepark, dog park, fountain, theatre like already exist in PVP park? Or the non-existent amenities in North Loop you wouldn't have room to build?



How would an at-grade North Loop park be easy to get around when you have to stop every 100 feet to cross traffic?

I will concede the point that Loose Park is less confusing to walk around than PVP but that's nothing some signage wouldn't fix.

Also, weird that you would criticize PVP as being sprawl but lionize Loose Park, a former country club in the heart of the original auto-focused suburb.

The fact you mentioned all of the amenities that PVP has and yet it's still not a vibrant park is exactly the point I'm making.

PVP is just not a great park no matter how much gets put into it. The things in it are far too spread a part, like sprawl. We need something more compact and more centrally located. I just don't think PVP will ever really be the park we want because of that, no matter what you do to it. It just really feels more like an open grassland and that's why nobody goes. Loose is in a sprawl location too yes, but the park I want at North Loop wouldn't be. Compact, centrally located is what I'd prefer.

I just don't know why we can't have a fun urban woven-in park like this when we can put f'ing apartments anywhere...literally anywhere. Can we just have fun things like this and think outside the box instead of just more mixed-use.

I tried attaching renderings of the north loop park but the thread isn't allowing it. I think that would help present the park alot better than me having to describe it by word.

Have you ever actually been to PVP on a nice weekend? Or, hell, during an event like Celebration at the Station? It can get pretty crowded. Not sure why you think no one goes there. And, not sure why a park needs to be compact, you don't have to use the entire park every time you go there for it to be a draw. Also, didn't this whole conversation start when you compared North Loop to Central Park, which is substantially bigger than PVP?

The problem isn't what's there, the problem is the design and its connection to surrounding neighborhoods. Something that can be easily overcome with street improvements we should do anyway, much easier than building a park from scratch that would just be a bunch of separated blocks. We can build that with a South Loop cap and it would be a better location for it and probably a better park. North Loop's potential is not as a park (but I would argue for a narrow linear park using the ROW) but as development that reconnects RM and CP to downtown.

Yes I compared it to Central Park for it being that we need a downtown park, not comparing it for the sheer size. Obviously NYC needs a park that big but we don't. What we do need is one downtown. South loop park wouldn't be bad but it's not quite the park we need. Yes I have been to PVP and it's pretty confusing to get around it and the parking is in awkward spots. The main concern I have with PVP is the location isn't even that good, and I've said this ten times now. It's literally a grassland outside of the downtown core. You can do whatever the hell you want with PVP, that will never change. What I want is a *true* downtown park that is woven in with the buildings, restaurants streetcar line and has amenities like Loose Park has. You want to shoot everything down for boring apartments so the downtown never has anything other than buildings and bars. I want something that brings people towards that end of the downtown, and no River Market isn't gonna be able to do all of it IMO.

Can we please just do more with downtown core than "buildings and bars".

This argument is going in circles so I suggest we just leave it there.

[FangKC]

I'm not convinced Penn Valley Park couldn't be made into a great park. I have been advocating such for a long time in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2174&hilit=Penn+Va ... k&start=20

It was developed during the bucolic meadow park craze where "naturalism" was what drove design. That has now been proven a failure in this specific location because the park is not utilized in the best way by residents.

---

The reason that buildings have been proposed for most of the North Loop is because of the trench. All that dirt was hauled out of there and dumped where Berkley Riverfront Park is. It's too expensive hauling dirt back in to fill it, so the solution is putting new buildings there with parking garages underneath. It also solves a long-running problem with having to create some parking garages -- the cost of excavation.

I think we can all agree we want to avoid parking garages when we can, and certainly above-ground ones. This would provide us a solution in several ways. A lot of parking for all of downtown could be placed here and commuters could then take the streetcar to their building further south. It also satiates the need for big employers who demand some parking, and frees up surface parking lots for development.

It also provides a location for some larger-footage buildings -- especially towards the east. Hopefully this might save some existing historic building stock that might be torn down to create entire-block developments like Copaken likes to propose. Well, Copaken can go to town on these blocks, and quit trying to build all types of mammoth things within two blocks of 12th and Main.

Some parts of these underground spaces would also be good for server farms, and the Bryant Building might get converted into apartments instead of a server hotel.

Finally, the North Loop project is going to be EXPENSIVE. The City, County, and State are not going to want a big non-revenue-producing section there. All of them will be collecting taxes from new development and jobs. To justify the cost of this, it's going to have to eventually produce a lot of new revenue. Large parks are revenue consumers.

[AlkaliAxel]

If were gonna have to put buildings on the north loop, and therefore stuck with PVP as the central downtown park, then it needs some SERIOUS re-design and shifting. Honestly amenities in it need to be reshuffled and moved around alot to make that park truly viable as a hub. I think it would involve alot of development around it too. It's a super long walk away if you live in the loop, and it's separated by highways, and even train tracks. I just don't see that ever being a downtown park, it's too far and too many barriers.

[FangKC]

Agreed. I complete re-envisioning of the park's function, layout, and higher density zoning around the edge.

[AlkaliAxel]

Hot take, but what if we moved the zoo out of Swope and into PVP? That actually would be something I think to really step up PVP and make it more noticeable downtown. I've never really understood why the zoo was way out there in the first place.

[FangKC]

Free land. Swope Park was donated to the City, and it was huge. The City had to do something with it.

[KCPowercat]

This has really gotten off track

[AlkaliAxel]

Do we think that, let's say with we get 4 blocks of cap, this is the type of project that you can come back years later and add on 2-3 more blocks? Like it won't just be something that once we get 4 blocks we're just done, right?

[normalthings]

Do we think that, let's say with we get 4 blocks of cap, this is the type of project that you can come back years later and add on 2-3 more blocks? Like it won't just be something that once we get 4 blocks we're just done, right?

Yes, you are more than likely able to come back later and add more blocks. You are just building linear bridges across the highway. It only becomes tricky when we start to have airflow concerns.

IMHO, ideally, we come back and building structures over the highway later on.

[chaglang]

Apart from the playground, Loose Park has essentially zero amenities. It's actually less designed than Ilus Davis Park. It's a field with a pond and a walking path. It draws because it's surrounded by a really nice neighborhood.

[KCPowercat]

I mean it has tennis courts, rose garden, walking path, shelters. All heavily used.

[DaveKCMO]

Apart from the playground, Loose Park has essentially zero amenities. It's actually less designed than Ilus Davis Park. It's a field with a pond and a walking path. It draws because it's surrounded by a really nice neighborhood.

And it has a conservancy!

[flyingember]

Apart from the playground, Loose Park has essentially zero amenities. It's actually less designed than Ilus Davis Park. It's a field with a pond and a walking path.

That's as far from the truth than you can get. don't need to go there, can drag around on google maps and learn what's there

Loose Park formal amenities:

Rose garden
garden center
stocked pond (for viewing, not fishing)
shelter
playground
tennis courts
walking path + bike path
Battle of Westport stop
car charging
spray park
statues

Ilus Davis:
benches
sidewalks
statues
memorials

[AlkaliAxel]

What is he smoking and can I have some?
Loose Park has everything and all of it is actually widely used. Not only all that^ stuff is there, people hold weddings and high school dance photo's there frequently. The "field" is usually filled up and used all the time too.

[chaglang]

Apart from the playground, Loose Park has essentially zero amenities. It's actually less designed than Ilus Davis Park. It's a field with a pond and a walking path.

That's as far from the truth than you can get. don't need to go there, can drag around on google maps and learn what's there

Loose Park formal amenities:

Rose garden
garden center
stocked pond (for viewing, not fishing)
shelter
playground
tennis courts
walking path + bike path
Battle of Westport stop
car charging
spray park
statues

Ilus Davis:
benches
sidewalks
statues
memorials

Thanks for the copypasta. Mentioned the pond, mentioned the playground, mentioned the path. Car charging and statues are laughable as amenities. The garden center is for holding garden club meetings.

Almost every park has pavilions and tennis courts. Spray parks are becoming more common. Gillham Park has one.

Point being: it's popular because of the location between the Plaza and Brookside, not because of what's necessarily there. Because what is there is found in almost every park in KC, including PVP. There's way more stuff in Swope Park.

We've wandered pretty far from the topic, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

[AlkaliAxel]

I think it's popular because it has the Rose Garden to walk through, but also because it's not obnoxiously big like Swope or PVP. Nobody goes for a walk at either of those.

[TheBigChuckbowski]

I think it's popular because it has the Rose Garden to walk through, but also because it's not obnoxiously big like Swope or PVP. Nobody goes for a walk at either of those.

You do realize that just because you don't do something that doesn't mean "nobody" does that thing, right? PVP around Liberty Memorial always has people out for a walk and working out.

[AlkaliAxel]

^I've been to both parks, one os much different than the other