Capping the Loop

[wahoowa]

every argument in favor of closing walnut through the park is really just an argument in favor of closing the main street bridge *to cars*.

• gives the streetcar lone priority cutting through the park on the main street bridge, a boon to pedestrian access and ease of use through a double-wide block of the park AND a nice visual representation of the value of transit priority. (btw, could build out a set of flagship streetcar stops in the middle of the bridge as it runs N/S and replace the ones by BRGR/alamo and kauffman, integrating the streetcar as a feature of the park and making the park itself an everyday destination for office workers and tourists all along the line, funneling more people through the park itself, saving a stop on a newly lengthened line, and reducing streetcar impact on auto traffic around 14th and 16th streets...)
• de-emphasizes cars on main generally even beyond the singular block closed, further improving streetcar priority and transit times through a potential chokepoint. closing walnut shunts half or more of that traffic over to main, which makes this problem worse.
• can put road diets on baltimore/walnut and even have automatically recurring ped crossings without beg buttons to continue to enhance park feel as you move away from main street, now imagined as the core of the park, that nonetheless allow hyperlocal auto traffic. again, big boon to pedestrian traffic without losing access point for vehicles
• otherwise route through traffic to broadway/grand or other alternatives not in the comparatively more pedestrian dense range of baltimore to grand, matching auto density to relative ped scarcity

i'm as anti-car as it gets but closing walnut through the park is incredibly shortsighted. main, walnut, and grand within ~3-5 blocks of truman are all ripe for redevelopment. three light and the cordish whatever-they're-gonna-be's on main are the obvious ones, but there's still twisty tower lot at 13 and grand plus basically 2 developable surface lots every block south of truman from truman itself all the way down to like 20th. if you're going to close a road for a park, shoot for the goddamn moon and do it as a component part of a plan to encourage a good pedestrian experience across the entire park, not a marginal improvement to the pedestrian experience on a single comparatively tame street.

[AlkaliAxel]

every argument in favor of closing walnut through the park is really just an argument in favor of closing the main street bridge *to cars*.

• gives the streetcar lone priority cutting through the park on the main street bridge, a boon to pedestrian access and ease of use through a double-wide block of the park AND a nice visual representation of the value of transit priority. (btw, could build out a set of flagship streetcar stops in the middle of the bridge as it runs N/S and replace the ones by BRGR/alamo and kauffman, integrating the streetcar as a feature of the park and making the park itself an everyday destination for office workers and tourists all along the line, funneling more people through the park itself, saving a stop on a newly lengthened line, and reducing streetcar impact on auto traffic around 14th and 16th streets...)
• de-emphasizes cars on main generally even beyond the singular block closed, further improving streetcar priority and transit times through a potential chokepoint. closing walnut shunts half or more of that traffic over to main, which makes this problem worse.
• can put road diets on baltimore/walnut and even have automatically recurring ped crossings without beg buttons to continue to enhance park feel as you move away from main street, now imagined as the core of the park, that nonetheless allow hyperlocal auto traffic. again, big boon to pedestrian traffic without losing access point for vehicles
• otherwise route through traffic to broadway/grand or other alternatives not in the comparatively more pedestrian dense range of baltimore to grand, matching auto density to relative ped scarcity

i'm as anti-car as it gets but closing walnut through the park is incredibly shortsighted. main, walnut, and grand within ~3-5 blocks of truman are all ripe for redevelopment. three light and the cordish whatever-they're-gonna-be's on main are the obvious ones, but there's still twisty tower lot at 13 and grand plus basically 2 developable surface lots every block south of truman from truman itself all the way down to like 20th. if you're going to close a road for a park, shoot for the goddamn moon and do it as a component part of a plan to encourage a good pedestrian experience across the entire park, not a marginal improvement to the pedestrian experience on a single comparatively tame street.

You have me at the re-development part. That is a very good point. I don't want to make it not as ripe for any potential development there.

[beautyfromashes]

Main is a major road. Never happen. To get to .ie Tom's Town from the Plaza you're not going to want to divert over to Grand and then come back. I'm all for making roads pedestrian only, but it has to be roads that aren't connections for through traffic. Walnut with a closure at the park would not be a connector to anything.

[TheLastGentleman]

I think narrowing car lanes and widening sidewalks should come before completely removing car traffic entirely. If the sidewalks are just so packed with people that they need the space in the middle of the street, then it’s time to remove the cars.

[Eon Blue]

Considering that River Market / Loop / Crossroads is one of the only areas in the city with a true functioning grid (or at least the potential), I'm very reluctant to endorse removing any more segments of that grid.

[FangKC]

Historically, pedestrian streets in the USA have had an 89 percent failure rate. Most were converted back to car use.

They tend to only work in college towns, or cities with high tourism in the area where the pedestrian street is.

Walnut also has several parking garage entrances/exits that would be blocked if the street became pedestrian-only. There are also a couple of loading docks for buildings.

TheLastGentleman has it right. Widen the sidewalks and narrow or reduce the car lanes.

[DaveKCMO]

If the sidewalks are just so packed with people that they need the space in the middle of the street, then it’s time to remove the cars.

Look at our existing parks in greater downtown for what you can expect. While this park will have programming that most parks don't, it won't be 24/7.

[FangKC]

I think people are over-estimating how much the park will be used. Look how parks are already used downtown: Oppenheimer, Ilus Davis Park, and Barney Allis Plaza. These are not heavily-used parks.

[DColeKC]

Historically, pedestrian streets in the USA have had an 89 percent failure rate. Most were converted back to car use.

They tend to only work in college towns, or cities with high tourism in the area where the pedestrian street is.

Walnut also has several parking garage entrances/exits that would be blocked if the street became pedestrian-only. There are also a couple of loading docks for buildings.

TheLastGentleman has it right. Widen the sidewalks and narrow or reduce the car lanes.

Pedestrian streets that failed were likely several blocks right? I wouldn't support anymore than just the one section over the current interstate being converted. I don't see it as a major inconvenience and I use it very often to jump on 71 south. I'd basically be looking going a block out of my way or just getting used to jumping on Grand.

I do think it's crucial that if Walnut goes away for this park, that the Grand closures are limited to T-mobile ingress and egress or other pedestrian safety situations. I'd expect a grand closure for an event to be limited to a few times a year max.

[DColeKC]

I think people are over-estimating how much the park will be used. Look how parks are already used downtown: Oppenheimer, Ilus Davis Park, and Barney Allis Plaza. These are not heavily-used parks.

I disagree. I think it will be heavily used as it will actually be programmed by someone with invested interest and have some very cool features useful to downtown residents and visitors. Unlike most parks that have grass and a few benches. Basically, our other downtown parks kind of suck, this one would be more geared towards the active downtown scene. For example, beer festivals, concerts and you could even envision First Friday's being based in this park, surrounded by food trucks. I could even see Irish Fest moving to this park in addition to utilizing some assets already within the area.

[normalthings]

I think people are over-estimating how much the park will be used. Look how parks are already used downtown: Oppenheimer, Ilus Davis Park, and Barney Allis Plaza. These are not heavily-used parks.

I disagree. I think it will be heavily used as it will actually be programmed by someone with invested interest and have some very cool features useful to downtown residents and visitors. Unlike most parks that have grass and a few benches. Basically, our other downtown parks kind of suck, this one would be more geared towards the active downtown scene. For example, beer festivals, concerts and you could even envision First Friday's being based in this park, surrounded by food trucks. I could even see Irish Fest moving to this park in addition to utilizing some assets already within the area.

100% agree. Berkley is the closest thing we have to a programmed park in downtown but is pretty disconnected at present. Despite that, it is pretty busy every night of the week during the summer.

[normalthings]

Have always thought that the Sprint Center block has much room for improvement.

The NE or SE corners could fit hotel or apartment developments.

The Grand side could use an elevated sidewalk into KC Live. Might even add an elevated entrance building on the side of Sprint Center.

[AlkaliAxel]

I think people are over-estimating how much the park will be used. Look how parks are already used downtown: Oppenheimer, Ilus Davis Park, and Barney Allis Plaza. These are not heavily-used parks.

Yeah I also disagree with this. This park is right in the middle of an already high amount of foot traffic for downtown and that's before we've even capped it. The other parks mentioned are disconnected. I imagine once we cap it, this park's foot traffic would be many times what we have now. Which is one reason why I'd eye scrapping that section of Walnut.

[AlkaliAxel]

Just throwing this out there, but have there ever been any discussions about capping that section adjacent to the T-Mobile Center too? It looks like prime real estate as well being right next to the venue and P&L. Would be a better direct access to T-Mobile Center from the Crossroads.

[normalthings]

Map of the combined projects. Jets are being put on this ahead of potential stimulus $$. Notice proposed buildings over the south loop itself

Yes, this has the T-Mobile block capped. But most articles and renderings keep it to just 4 Blocks.

[AlkaliAxel]

Map of the combined projects. Jets are being put on this ahead of potential stimulus $$. Notice proposed buildings over the south loop itself

Yes, this has the T-Mobile block capped. But most articles and renderings keep it to just 4 Blocks.

So are we gonna be getting the T-Mobile cap or the smaller cap with just 4 blocks?

If we can get this bigger cap, then we definitely keep Walnut open since we'll have enough length for a walking park without street interruption.

[normalthings]

Map of the combined projects. Jets are being put on this ahead of potential stimulus $$. Notice proposed buildings over the south loop itself

Yes, this has the T-Mobile block capped. But most articles and renderings keep it to just 4 Blocks.

So are we gonna be getting the T-Mobile cap or the smaller cap with just 4 blocks?

If we can get this bigger cap, then we definitely keep Walnut open since we'll have enough length for a walking park without street interruption.

We are gonna get whatever we can pay more. Realistically that means just the 4 blocks.

[DaveKCMO]

I wouldn't even bank on four blocks because there's an assumption that the cost is split three ways -- private, federal, local/state. That means ~$47 million from KCMO or MoDOT -- and we can look at the O'Neil Bridge and recent disputes about GO Bond projects as harbingers of how that local/state conversation might pan out (in short, MoDOT might be good for the baseline infrastructure but will extort 'fancy thing' funding from the city and the council will object 'because downtown incentives').

Ultimately, downtown needs to pick a catalytic infrastructure priority because we're simultaneously asking for North Loop, South Loop Link, Barney Allis Plaza, Greenline, Downtown Baseball Stadium, Keystone Innovation District, 18th & Vine, Riverfront, and whatever else is on the list -- after having funded O'Neil Bridge, Streetcar, P&L, etc. I'm not justifying this logic, just laying out the narrative that exists broadly outside of the 4th district.

[AlkaliAxel]

I wouldn't even bank on four blocks because there's an assumption that the cost is split three ways -- private, federal, local/state. That means ~$47 million from KCMO or MoDOT -- and we can look at the O'Neil Bridge and recent disputes about GO Bond projects as harbingers of how that local/state conversation might pan out (in short, MoDOT might be good for the baseline infrastructure but will extort 'fancy thing' funding from the city and the council will object 'because downtown incentives').

Ultimately, downtown needs to pick a catalytic infrastructure priority because we're simultaneously asking for North Loop, South Loop Link, Barney Allis Plaza, Greenline, Downtown Baseball Stadium, Keystone Innovation District, 18th & Vine, Riverfront, and whatever else is on the list -- after having funded O'Neil Bridge, Streetcar, P&L, etc. I'm not justifying this logic, just laying out the narrative that exists broadly outside of the 4th district.

If that is the list, I think our sole focus priority right now needs to be on the South Loop cap then.

Not only is that a key to spur more development/growth, but we'd finally get a real park downtown, and I think it would get more people to realize what decking highways can mean for the city (so then hopefully people then put more serious focus on the north loop)

[beautyfromashes]

How about we move the American Royal back but use the new capped park for smoking and T-Mobile (I still want to call it Sprint) for events? Get the federal or state government to pay for the cap.