5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

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Rabble
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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by Rabble »

normalthings wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:05 pm
Rabble wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:51 pm
DaveKCMO wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:43 am
I'll take the larger project with less parking, please. All parking in/out should be on a restored Main Street between 3rd and 5th.
I don't see a restored Main Street in either proposal. It looks like both will keep the 1980's pedestrian alley we have now.
I seek some cars hiding in the ally on the 12 floor proposal
I see what can't be more than one lane now. The 12 story comes out to the east edge of the existing surface lot. That is not a restored Main Street.

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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by FangKC »

I have no problem with the building height of the first plan. I'm sure there will be NIMBY objections though -- especially from those who have views out their windows from across the alley. And because there always are.

I don't know why Plan One doesn't have access to the parking garage via the alley like 423 Delaware.

I'd like to see Main reopened as well, but looking at it from an aerial point-of-view, I wonder if they are keeping it pedestrian because the plans require more width to accomplish their goals. Reopening Main might require a wider right-of-way for two lanes and sidewalks than exists in these plans. See link:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1070688 ... !1e3?hl=en

I would like to see Plan One on the north side of Fifth Street, and Plan Two on the south side of Fifth. Plan Two would likely have to be modified because the south parcel is smaller. See link:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.110006 ... 1e3?hl=en

In a perfect world I'd like to see both plans have the retail bays along Main Street for most of the length of the block. However, I'm starting to question whether there will be a need for so much retail space from now on -- anywhere.

As for parking, I can see that many spaces in Project One simply because there might be more resistance to getting the development approved without it. One thing I note regularly is how much complaining there is on local Facebook pages about any reductions in available parking spaces around the City Market. If Project Two were built on the south side of Fifth Street, I can see less parking needed for that building. This might especially be true if it were say affordable apartments.

I don't like so much parking garage exposure in Plan Two along Main Street. Hide that, or come up with some type of attractive screen.

I wish we had aerial diagrams of both projects.

I don't care what anyone says, I always love a bay window. They also provide enhanced neighborhood security because tenants can look up and down the block from their apartment to see what is going on. Anyone who keeps plants also likes them.

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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by normalthings »

FangKC wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:41 pm
In a perfect world I'd like to see both plans have the retail bays along Main Street for most of the length of the block. However, I'm starting to question whether there will be a need for so much retail space from now on -- anywhere.
Dedicated retail stalls require capital and credit. Let's add space accessible to the smallest vendors. Design the facade with utility hookups for street vendors and maybe a few indoor restrooms and things for employees. Let's continue to make the City Market a place that immigrant and family business can be a part of. The more people that benefit from downtown's resurgence, the more we can mitigate the effects of rising housing costs and prices.

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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by DaveKCMO »

Rabble wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:51 pm
DaveKCMO wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:43 am
I'll take the larger project with less parking, please. All parking in/out should be on a restored Main Street between 3rd and 5th.
I don't see a restored Main Street in either proposal. It looks like both will keep the 1980's pedestrian alley we have now.
These are just proposals. If they're seeking incentives, now is the time to get public infrastructure needs addressed.

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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by Chris Stritzel »

normalthings wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:51 pm

Dedicated retail stalls require capital and credit. Let's add space accessible to the smallest vendors. Design the facade with utility hookups for street vendors and maybe a few indoor restrooms and things for employees. Let's continue to make the City Market a place that immigrant and family business can be a part of. The more people that benefit from downtown's resurgence, the more we can mitigate the effects of rising housing costs and prices.
A balance can be struck between retail space and hookups for street vendors. Both can contribute to the vibrancy of a neighborhood.

I understand your push for an immigrant family business friendly environment. That can co-exist nicely with other retailers too.

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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by ToDactivist »

Main - plan I have shows a fully activated Main for northbound ingress into the parking garage (above ground) as well as egress then out northbound with some parking along park. Conveniently, the elevation of the street allows for 2nd floor garage access off 5th from the SW corner and 3rd floor garage access (if desired) from the alley. Avoids costly ramping. Dont know if that detail is included but possible.

Retail - overcooked. There is plenty of retail within the City Market and on 5th/Grand and on Delaware. I hate to see it forced here except on maybe the SE hardcorner. Nothing like walking down a newly opened Main on M-F and seeing vacant bays b/c they can only survive on weekends. Just b/c you can doesnt mean you should. Weekend pop-ups possible.

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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by moderne »

The 12 floor version, the north end appears wider than the south. Is this an "L" shaped building?

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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by normalthings »

moderne wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:29 pm
The 12 floor version, the north end appears wider than the south. Is this an "L" shaped building?
It is an L shaped building

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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by Rabble »

ToDactivist wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:44 pm
KCPowercat wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:52 am
Garage access should be on independence only.
A non-ingress route into the RM via a garage directly off Indy is a great idea and something I have tried to also talk about to whoever will listen. Lot is there, others have agreed, just need some visibility and city initiative. This should be a requirement of the next RFP for the lot south of 5th. Tougher deal with the old massive sewer line bisecting this parcel, but solvable.
I brought up a parking structure, with direct access off the reworked HOA approach, that could keep northlander's cars off the river market streets and it led to a debate between the Free Range Parkers vs. the Socialist Mandated Park & Riders.

Would a parking garage between 5th and Independence benefit this jewel? It has to be KC's best looking storage bin. I'm told it's undevelopable because of lack of parking.

Image

Image

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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by normalthings »

Rabble wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:30 pm
ToDactivist wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:44 pm
KCPowercat wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:52 am
Garage access should be on independence only.
A non-ingress route into the RM via a garage directly off Indy is a great idea and something I have tried to also talk about to whoever will listen. Lot is there, others have agreed, just need some visibility and city initiative. This should be a requirement of the next RFP for the lot south of 5th. Tougher deal with the old massive sewer line bisecting this parcel, but solvable.
I brought up a parking structure, with direct access off the reworked HOA approach, that could keep northlander's cars off the river market streets and it led to a debate between the Free Range Parkers vs. the Socialist Mandated Park & Riders.

Would a parking garage between 5th and Independence benefit this jewel? It has to be KC's best looking storage bin. I'm told it's undevelopable because of lack of parking.

Image

Image
You could fit maybe 2-5 units on the upper floors. I'd hope it wouldn't be hard to buy/lease that many in the new mega garage being built here at 5th & Main

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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by Rabble »

normalthings wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:33 pm
Rabble wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:30 pm

Would a parking garage between 5th and Independence benefit this jewel? It has to be KC's best looking storage bin. I'm told it's undevelopable because of lack of parking.

Image

Image
You could fit maybe 2-5 units on the upper floors. I'd hope it wouldn't be hard to buy/lease that many in the new mega garage being built here at 5th & Main
Let's put 529 Main in it's proper pre-interstate context.
Image

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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by Chris Stritzel »

^Old street scenes like that are depressing to me. Shows how much was lost with the construction of the highways

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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by Rabble »

Chris Stritzel wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:19 pm
^Old street scenes like that are depressing to me. Shows how much was lost with the construction of the highways
Should not be depressing. Rome and Paris have torn down far greater buildings than Kansas City has ever even had. We've lost some good buildings (ok, maybe one or two great buildings) but mostly we've lost so many square miles of urbanism. Once the north loop is gone this section of Main could look better than ever, with 529 Main still in middle of it all.

I should also point out that not all the old buildings were created equal. The old warehouse buildings in the Garment, Freight House, and West Bottoms were built for heavy loads, with 19th century fire prevention measures. These were buildings saved by being reused as new additional manufacturing uses, and because of their construction was not easily torn down. The little Italianate two-story retail buildings were more easily knocked over for surface parking as the need required.

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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by Chris Stritzel »

Rabble wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:46 pm
Chris Stritzel wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:19 pm
^Old street scenes like that are depressing to me. Shows how much was lost with the construction of the highways
Should not be depressing. Rome and Paris have torn down far greater buildings than Kansas City has ever even had. We've lost some good buildings (ok, maybe one or two great buildings) but mostly we've lost so many square miles of urbanism. Once the north loop is gone this section of Main could look better than ever, with 529 Main still in middle of it all.

I should also point out that not all the old buildings were created equal. The old warehouse buildings in the Garment, Freight House, and West Bottoms were built for heavy loads, with 19th century fire prevention measures. These were buildings saved by being reused as new additional manufacturing uses, and because of their construction was not easily torn down. The little Italianate two-story retail buildings were more easily knocked over for surface parking as the need required.
True, although it would've been nice to still have the buildings that were lost. The North Loop will eventually be removed though and when it is, like you say, this section of Main could look better than ever. 529 Main is a nice little building and retains much of it's character. The redevelopment/renovation of 529 would be boosted by the 5th and Main project just because of the proximity. Lofts make the most sense in my view for that building but it all depends on the floor sizes and layout. Lofts there could be marketed as a "car optional lifestyle environment" because of the proximity to the Streetcar.

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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by Chris Stritzel »

Just reviewing the plans (renderings and what is publicly out there), I would definitely choose the Flaherty and Collins proposal. I'll explain why.

Flaherty and Collins Pros...
- 300 apartments (great density for the parcel).
- 45 affordable apartments (meets the 15% minimum as stated in the RFP. Couple this with the affordable project F&C are involved with at the Riverfront Park and the total number of affordable units developed by, or co-developed by, F&C in the area will be 169 units).
- No parking garage entrance on 5th Street (does not mess with the Streetcar route any and is a bonus for pedestrians).
- Apparent underground parking for 400 cars.
- 240 parking spaces for residents (.8 space per unit ratio, perfect for being on a transit line).
- 10,000sf of commercial space (helps with activation and adding new things to the neighborhood).
- Apparent re-introduction of Main Street on the side of the building (healing the grid?).
- Using local architecture firm for design services.

RM Housing Pros...
- 5-Story height matches the neighborhood.
- Design matches the neighborhood.
- Over-exceeds the 15% minimum for affordable housing (90% in this building).

Now, there are Cons about both projects...

Flaherty & Collins Cons...
- Facade materials appear to be cheap (while we don't know for sure, good facade materials can make or break this project in terms of looks).
- Only reaches 15% affordable housing, which was the bare minimum. They make it work with 15%, but 22% could've been a little bit better as that would've yielded 66 affordable apartments, but economics ultimately wins here.

RM Housing Cons...
- Less density on the property means less potential residents patronizing nearby businesses (only 100 apartment units, but probably won't cause NIMBY outrage as much).
- Garage access on 5th Street.
- Exposed parking structure.
- No apparent retail space fronting 5th Street. The blank walls are just not good for an urban environment (as we learned with Reverb and will learn with Waddell and Reed).
- Using out of town architecture firm for the design work. While Hord Coplan Macht is a decent firm, the fact that a local developer couldn't have tapped a local architecture firm is a con to me.

The Neutral (same amongst the two)...
- Both will seek Low Income Housing Tax Credits from the State and Feds.
- Both could seek property tax abatements.
- Both develop a surface parking lot into a higher usage.
- Both meet the 160 public parking space requirement as defined in the RFP issued by Port KC.

So to recap...
- The Flaherty and Collins proposal has 8 pros and 2 cons for an adjusted score of 6.
- The RM Housing proposal has 3 pros and 5 cons for an adjusted score of -2.
SPREAD: Flaherty and Collins +8

I'm not trying to be hard on the development team at RM Housing, but I have to be real here. They had the opportunity to have increased density on this parcel, better street level activation, and overall more daring approach to the project than they did. I know they're trying to respect the neighborhood's surroundings, and I respect that, but they could've went just a bit taller. 7 floors would've been better in my view and would've had them rank a bit higher, but still wouldn't overcome the Flaherty and collins project, which seems to have hit the nail on the head pretty well on the first look-over of the project.

I look forward to seeing what proposal the folks at Port KC choose for this site. Will they go with ambitious and dense? Or will they go for traditional and not daring? We shall see, but in my opinion and grade book, Flaherty and Collins is the clear winner in this case and is ready to build something special.

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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by TheLastGentleman »

It would be insane not to go with the 12 story proposal. The 5 story is ok, and certainly better than nothing, but there’s zero energy in the design. Looks very Zona Rosa to me

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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by Major KC Fan »

I agree with the analysis of the two proposals. The RM needs density to support the market and other businesses in the area. I really like the parking entrance/exit to not be on 5th St as well. There’s enough congestion on 5th St on busy market days and we should be striving to minimize the slowdown that the streetcar encounters in that area. Retail on the 5th St side is also vital to tie the market crowd over to Delaware St businesses. I also can’t wait to experience both daytime and nighttime dining in the top floor restaurant (hopefully open to the public) once the scourge of Covid is tamed!

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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by Critical_Mass »

The shorter proposal also lacks any entrance or interaction with the park, just a landscaping strip and a blank wall concealing the parking. It basically puts its back to the park and creates more of a dead zone. The taller one has the entrance and larger windows on the ground level. Better interaction and makes it easier to utilize the greenspace for residents.

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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by flyingember »

Didn’t dig to see if it was pointed out, but the more units that are built, the more market competition there is.
If 15% are affordable that’s 255 market rate.

It’s well known that an excess of units keeps prices down, so the affordable units aren’t priced upwards as fast by high demand.

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Re: 5th and Main (Northwest Corner)

Post by DaveKCMO »

Interesting case where the city is literally a competing multifamily landlord on the parcel next door.

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