Downtown Baseball Stadium

Issues concerning Downtown as described by the Downtown Council. River to 31st Street, I-35 to Bruce R. Watkins.
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DColeKC
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by DColeKC »

GRID wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:29 pm
DColeKC wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:17 pm
KCPowercat wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:36 pm
A new downtown park is going to be 33-35k I'd bet anything on that.
100% agree. Let's not forget some of the reason for wanting it downtown is to be closer to residents who can walk to the stadium and tourists. No one is walking to the Truman Sports Complex right now and very few business folks in town for work are catching a game because it's cheap and easy to get to. Hopefully this means an increase in attendance. Not to mention the overall experience for out of town guests. Being able to stay downtown and walk to all the spots required for a family weekend trip is huge!
Being 30 miles from two very urban ballparks and having gone to dozens of games at both, I think you are overestimating the percent of crowds that walk to games form the immediate local area. It might increase weekday attendance some, but will it be enough to offset the loss from those that don't want to drive back into the city and deal with parking etc. And parking and traffic will be a problem not because there is not enough parking, but because KC's downtown highway and surface street infrastructure is just not designed for large crowds coming and going.

Downtown KC doesn't even have any major streets to collect and distribute traffic to and from the stadium like you have in Denver, ST Louis Baltimore, DC etc. In order for a downtown park to work in KC, you would need to spend a few hundred million on infrastructure improvements alone. Anyway, my point is that most people, even in very urban ballparks come from places that you have to drive from or take transit. The streetcar will help, but still most will drive. A VERY tiny percent of people gong to the game will be coming form people that live downtown or are staying in downtown hotels. You can see this in any city. Clev, Balt, DC, Sea, Toronto etc. Then you have Milwaukee which draws very well from a city smaller than KC without a downtown park. LA basically has a suburban park even though it's near downtown and they draw 50k a night. 99% of people that go to cards games are from the burbs. Baltimore, Pitts, Cleve all can barely get 10k on many nights with amazing downtown parks. Build it downtown, but don't expect it to change attendance much.

You still need a 35k seat park though or again, how do you even make the numbers work to be in the MLB in the first place. Got to be able to pull in those 35k crowds on fri and sat or during special games.
Only thing I disagree with is the STL comment. Nowhere near 99% come from the burbs. STL, Texas and Atlanta are the only mlb teams I have actual inside information on. STL games actually feature a solid percentage every game from out of town guest staying in downtown hotels. More so on the weekends of course. Big business attendance on weekdays as well.

Atlanta sees a big regular attendance from people living within 1 mile of the stadium. They average almost double the attendance of the royals.

Texas is a bit odd because it’s similar to KC’s current situation but does have the entertainment complex there and residential in the pipeline. Still somewhat Isolated from major residential.

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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by KC_JAYHAWK »

We don't want anything like Busch III. The Ballpark Village development has helped, but it's still surrounded by run down, crappy parking lots and parking garages built in the 1960s.

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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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What % of downtown residents do you think will attend a Royals game downtown. If you want to fill a 35k seat stadium it will need to be 116% x 81 games. (I know, out of towners, conventioners and people working downtown will got too).

Personaly it think it will be a wash between the number that will attend because they don't have to drive and the number that won't because "OMG Parking and traffic".

First couple of years you will get a new venue bump.

It really is probably driven by corperate money. If they say they will by suites and sponserships they will build it downtown. Individual ticket holders aren't going to move the needle.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

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shinatoo wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:51 pm
What % of downtown residents do you think will attend a Royals game downtown. If you want to fill a 35k seat stadium it will need to be 116% x 81 games. (I know, out of towners, conventioners and people working downtown will got too).

Personaly it think it will be a wash between the number that will attend because they don't have to drive and the number that won't because "OMG Parking and traffic".

First couple of years you will get a new venue bump.

It really is probably driven by corperate money. If they say they will by suites and sponserships they will build it downtown. Individual ticket holders aren't going to move the needle.
Soccer is the only sport that I think would be wildly successful downtown. Smaller site allows for more location options and the urban core crowd is their prime demographic.

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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by Chris Stritzel »

normalthings wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:59 pm
Soccer is the only sport that I think would be wildly successful downtown. Smaller site allows for more location options and the urban core crowd is their prime demographic.
Do you think Sporting KC would consider moving Downtown is given the option at some point? I know their current home is pretty new but maybe they'd consider a move considering how many new soccer teams are setting up homes in Downtown areas or closer to Downtowns.

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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by normalthings »

Chris Stritzel wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:18 pm
normalthings wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:59 pm
Soccer is the only sport that I think would be wildly successful downtown. Smaller site allows for more location options and the urban core crowd is their prime demographic.
Do you think Sporting KC would consider moving Downtown is given the option at some point? I know their current home is pretty new but maybe they'd consider a move considering how many new soccer teams are setting up homes in Downtown areas or closer to Downtowns.
Sporting KC is where it is because of STAR Bonds and the adjacent Cerner office. Sporting doesn't really turn a profit even with their big subsidies. It is the events business where they make their money. Of course, that includes all of those Cerner related events that they host. There is no downtown soccer without downtown Cerner until the point where soccer becomes a profitable business on its own. Even then, I have doubts they would want to separate soccer and the office.

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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by DColeKC »

KC_JAYHAWK wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:26 pm
We don't want anything like Busch III. The Ballpark Village development has helped, but it's still surrounded by run down, crappy parking lots and parking garages built in the 1960s.
Ballpark Village and Busch are about the only thing going well for downtown STL. That positivity will spur development and all those old crappy parking lots and garages will be redeveloped. We are on the opposite end of the development spectrum here in KC. A ballpark, properly done and placed will just compliment the work that has been done and help continue it's awesome trajectory into the distant future.

The game day experience in STL is hard to beat nationwide.

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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by KCPowercat »

I've been to 27 stadiums and I'd agree it's pretty good, at least top7, also due to lots of fans consider those games their religion.

Haven't we discussed this topic and every opinion in the new stadiums room like 100 times? I haven't seen anything new said yet.

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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by earthling »

On another tangent. Back around 2000 I recall discussions about a possible decline in MLB interest with younger generations as video games and short attention spans could harm MLB the most as it's a slow game. Fast forward to recent times and of the major league sports, MLB has highest as well as increasing avg viewing age, from 52 in 2000 to 57 recently. Not a death spiral for MLB but is something to think about, in addition to more entertainment options than ever.

Multi-sport stadiums haven't been successful in the past but new methods might make it more palatable. And if MLB struggles more and more over time, might help for a new downtown stadium to accommodate other sports/events, that is not too tied to a diamond shape.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-s ... 2017-06-30

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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by TheSmokinPun »

normalthings wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:59 pm
shinatoo wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:51 pm
What % of downtown residents do you think will attend a Royals game downtown. If you want to fill a 35k seat stadium it will need to be 116% x 81 games. (I know, out of towners, conventioners and people working downtown will got too).

Personaly it think it will be a wash between the number that will attend because they don't have to drive and the number that won't because "OMG Parking and traffic".

First couple of years you will get a new venue bump.

It really is probably driven by corperate money. If they say they will by suites and sponserships they will build it downtown. Individual ticket holders aren't going to move the needle.
Soccer is the only sport that I think would be wildly successful downtown. Smaller site allows for more location options and the urban core crowd is their prime demographic.
It's already being discussed from time to time. Reason why they didn't add on to the stadium when they could have easily kept selling more and more tickets. Still selling really well, even with the bad season.

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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by normalthings »

TheSmokinPun wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:32 pm
normalthings wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:59 pm
shinatoo wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:51 pm
What % of downtown residents do you think will attend a Royals game downtown. If you want to fill a 35k seat stadium it will need to be 116% x 81 games. (I know, out of towners, conventioners and people working downtown will got too).

Personaly it think it will be a wash between the number that will attend because they don't have to drive and the number that won't because "OMG Parking and traffic".

First couple of years you will get a new venue bump.

It really is probably driven by corperate money. If they say they will by suites and sponserships they will build it downtown. Individual ticket holders aren't going to move the needle.
Soccer is the only sport that I think would be wildly successful downtown. Smaller site allows for more location options and the urban core crowd is their prime demographic.
It's already being discussed from time to time. Reason why they didn't add on to the stadium when they could have easily kept selling more and more tickets. Still selling really well, even with the bad season.
Do you have a source? What I had posted earlier was what was told to me by ownership.
Sporting KC is where it is because of STAR Bonds and the adjacent Cerner office. Sporting doesn't really turn a profit even with their big subsidies. It is the events business where they make their money. Of course, that includes all of those Cerner related events that they host. There is no downtown soccer without downtown Cerner until the point where soccer becomes a profitable business on its own. Even then, I have doubts they would want to separate soccer and the office.

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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by WoodDraw »

The biggest concern is going to be not having it surrounded by parking lots and be part of an actually urban development. Everyone get ready to fight on this.

They must have a hof museum open year around, event space, and hopefully year around restaurants and bars. Royals are out of town? Head to the stadium to watch.

It's time to rethink the way stadiums are built.

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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by flyingember »

WoodDraw wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:08 am
The biggest concern is going to be not having it surrounded by parking lots and be part of an actually urban development. Everyone get ready to fight on this.

They must have a hof museum open year around, event space, and hopefully year around restaurants and bars. Royals are out of town? Head to the stadium to watch.

It's time to rethink the way stadiums are built.
There already is a development planned. Based on the possible site, there's already development on two sides. One building and the transit hub already exist.

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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by DColeKC »

WoodDraw wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:08 am
The biggest concern is going to be not having it surrounded by parking lots and be part of an actually urban development. Everyone get ready to fight on this.

They must have a hof museum open year around, event space, and hopefully year around restaurants and bars. Royals are out of town? Head to the stadium to watch.

It's time to rethink the way stadiums are built.
I wouldn’t count out Cordish’s involvement considering they have now partnered with 3 MLB teams with more planned and contributed to the fees ability study. This could influence the final location as well but in other cities, the coordination for away games is very important to constantly provide guests and fans with an authentic game day experience, regardless if you’re in the stadium or across the street.

While likely far too expensive and impossible because of the need to relocate 670, that area would be more than ideal for the new stadium. It checks all the boxes except “affordable”.

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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by WoodDraw »

DColeKC wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:52 am
WoodDraw wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:08 am
The biggest concern is going to be not having it surrounded by parking lots and be part of an actually urban development. Everyone get ready to fight on this.

They must have a hof museum open year around, event space, and hopefully year around restaurants and bars. Royals are out of town? Head to the stadium to watch.

It's time to rethink the way stadiums are built.
I wouldn’t count out Cordish’s involvement considering they have now partnered with 3 MLB teams with more planned and contributed to the fees ability study. This could influence the final location as well but in other cities, the coordination for away games is very important to constantly provide guests and fans with an authentic game day experience, regardless if you’re in the stadium or across the street.

While likely far too expensive and impossible because of the need to relocate 670, that area would be more than ideal for the new stadium. It checks all the boxes except “affordable”.
I would not count cordish out as well. It's a bit complicated because of the way the land is banked.

You'll know this better than me, but I've heard cordish is looking for places to expand after their current spots are built out. South of Truman and east village would be natural choices. A new stadium would go in well with the timeline of when they've finished building out their current places.

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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by DColeKC »

WoodDraw wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:41 pm
DColeKC wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:52 am
WoodDraw wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:08 am
The biggest concern is going to be not having it surrounded by parking lots and be part of an actually urban development. Everyone get ready to fight on this.

They must have a hof museum open year around, event space, and hopefully year around restaurants and bars. Royals are out of town? Head to the stadium to watch.

It's time to rethink the way stadiums are built.
I wouldn’t count out Cordish’s involvement considering they have now partnered with 3 MLB teams with more planned and contributed to the fees ability study. This could influence the final location as well but in other cities, the coordination for away games is very important to constantly provide guests and fans with an authentic game day experience, regardless if you’re in the stadium or across the street.

While likely far too expensive and impossible because of the need to relocate 670, that area would be more than ideal for the new stadium. It checks all the boxes except “affordable”.
I would not count cordish out as well. It's a bit complicated because of the way the land is banked.

You'll know this better than me, but I've heard cordish is looking for places to expand after their current spots are built out. South of Truman and east village would be natural choices. A new stadium would go in well with the timeline of when they've finished building out their current places.
They are for sure interested in building outside of the official PNL district footprint and have explored a few locations. South of Truman is #1 and some thought has even been tossed around about 17th and Vine way down the development road. If a new stadium is in the east village, it's still good for the entertainment district along as they don't try to build their own smaller entertainment district directly next to the stadium. Can't imagine that happening as it would be counterproductive to already tax incentivized developments.

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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by normalthings »

DColeKC wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:50 pm
WoodDraw wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:41 pm
DColeKC wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:52 am


I wouldn’t count out Cordish’s involvement considering they have now partnered with 3 MLB teams with more planned and contributed to the fees ability study. This could influence the final location as well but in other cities, the coordination for away games is very important to constantly provide guests and fans with an authentic game day experience, regardless if you’re in the stadium or across the street.

While likely far too expensive and impossible because of the need to relocate 670, that area would be more than ideal for the new stadium. It checks all the boxes except “affordable”.
I would not count cordish out as well. It's a bit complicated because of the way the land is banked.

You'll know this better than me, but I've heard cordish is looking for places to expand after their current spots are built out. South of Truman and east village would be natural choices. A new stadium would go in well with the timeline of when they've finished building out their current places.
They are for sure interested in building outside of the official PNL district footprint and have explored a few locations. South of Truman is #1 and some thought has even been tossed around about 17th and Vine way down the development road. If a new stadium is in the east village, it's still good for the entertainment district along as they don't try to build their own smaller entertainment district directly next to the stadium. Can't imagine that happening as it would be counterproductive to already tax incentivized developments.
1. S Truman and 18 Vine are interesting locations to expand to. S Truman being a great fit for a Cordish office tower.

2. We subsidize 18 Vine and P&L despite being pretty close. I don’t think a smallish entertainment area around the stadium is unrealistic.

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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by TheLastGentleman »

I could see some sort of "entertainment row" forming between the P&L District and the stadium district. Threading it through the civic center could turn City Hall into a bit of a tourist attraction, especially since its observation deck will be looking down at the stadium!

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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by Riverite »

We could also expand it over to the jail if that ends up getting replaced with something else

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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by flyingember »

Riverite wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:28 pm
We could also expand it over to the jail if that ends up getting replaced with something else
An entertainment district for a stadium isn't enough of a reason to tear down a historic structure

The jail is also the police HQ from 1938. It should become part of such a district, not be torn down

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