OFFICIAL - Waddell & Reed - 14th & Baltimore

Issues concerning Downtown as described by the Downtown Council. River to 31st Street, I-35 to Bruce R. Watkins.
earthling
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Re: OFFICIAL - Waddell & Reed - 14th & Baltimore

Post by earthling »

My guess it will become a spec building if new owner doesn't directly use. But the one remaining thing KC lacks for attracting outside biz is a major university within metro, which Nashville, Minneapolis, etc have. Now that the new airport and streetcar momentum is in gear, boosting UMKC/KU into a higher tier research university should be the #1 priority for the metro (well maybe #2 with #1 being violent crime/drug trade). Otherwise we just get back office jobs at best from outside biz looking at KC. And W&R building is pricey for backoffice jobs.

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Re: OFFICIAL - Waddell & Reed - 14th & Baltimore

Post by flyingember »

earthling wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:22 am
Otherwise we just get back office jobs at best from outside biz looking at KC.
We could do a lot worse than to gain back office jobs downtown. It's all about the snowball effect

Jobs that are industry agnostic are exactly what we want because when the company shuts down, is sold, or the like, there aren't a few hundred people looking for places needing similar skills and saturating those few jobs. A back office with 20 accountants or 20 computer techs can work about anywhere.

It doesn't take that many small back office operations to exceed the total employment of one of the biggest employers downtown.

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Re: OFFICIAL - Waddell & Reed - 14th & Baltimore

Post by KC_JAYHAWK »

GRID wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:30 pm
KCPowercat wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:12 pm
GRID wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:14 pm
Jesus. KC just can't catch a break. This could easily end up getting stalled mid construction and sitting for years.
We aren't down on our luck. Things have honestly never been better.
I guess compared to the KC of the 80's and 90's, but that's not a very high bar. I know KC has lots going to and lots to be proud of, but it just seems like the city can never really get any real momentum going without a major setback or setbacks. KC Star building, the Hyatt Hotel, the Embassy Suites etc. Three Light taking forever to get off the ground. Taking way too long to rebuild downtown highways and get some recreation infrastructure. Not getting any office buildings started before the pandemic and now none are likely to be built. Even little things likes replacing the interesting Broadway bridge with a boring girder bridge or tearing buildings down like the board of ed and having another empty lots blocks from the CBD is just nuts. This giant parking garage could turn into the front door of KC's convention center district if it's not built as originally planned.

KC has to figure out a way to sell itself to the coasts like places like MSP, Charlotte, Nashville, Austin, Denver etc do. KC is still thought of as the Buffalo of the midwest to most people. A has been city. that's not true, but till the city starts getting some serious national attention, it will continue to chug along with lackluster local developers and losing out to mergers etc.

The new airport will be a great start. Not sure how you could even begin to sell KC when the first and last place people see is KCI airport. Nothing screams more "has been" than KCI.

KC is VERY lucky this building even got started and should take advantage of it by making sure it's built to class A corporates HQ standards. It will get leased. But it has to get built first.
I often feel this way as well, but it just seems to be the KC way...:). Getting projects off the ground seems to be the #1 hurdle, even when the developer gets huge incentives (i.e. Cordish). With 1 and 2 light at 95%+ occupancy, I just can't understand why Cordish is dragging their feet. Remember 3 light was originally supposed to be started at the time 2 light was being built. It's been 2 years now since 2 light opened.

But there has been a lot of apartments built in the Rivermarket and more to come, along with the Union Hill area, but most are low rise and don't really stick out, but add valuable infill. The two apartments in the Crossroads (Arterra and Rverb) are the most significant (besides the light towers), and do add something to the skyline, but most important fill empty lots. The Crossroads needs about 5-6 more Arterra's/Rverb's.

And with COVID, you expect things to slow down as companies re-evaluate their office needs. The WR tower will add a nice addition to the skyline and could potentially spur more spec development if WR decides not to re-locate employees and it fills up quickly with other tenants. It's hard to speculate how COVID is going to change things, but I'm certain that more companies will choose to downsize and have some employees continue to work from home. I know my employer, located downtown, is looking to downsize office space in 1KC and re-model the remaining floors to be more open with larger conference rooms and less designated employee space. Time will tell.

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Re: OFFICIAL - Waddell & Reed - 14th & Baltimore

Post by Midtownkid »

The building design was always horrible. I hope they redesign the whole thing. A design with a more vertical movement rather than a clumsy stack of squat boxes would be much more attractive! If they would just offset the tower so it is skinnier and rises on the west side of the site, it could look really dramatic from the skyline with the P&L mostly un-obscured. While they are at it, they can redesign the lifeless first floor, too.

Here is a rudimentary sketch of alternative design massing. With changes in cladding and tower shape/height I'm sure the podium would need some structural changes; but aesthetically, I wish this could happen.

Image
Last edited by Midtownkid on Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: OFFICIAL - Waddell & Reed - 14th & Baltimore

Post by beautyfromashes »

Modify the streetfront, convert a few upper parking levels to office, take the money previously going for incentives and deck the highway making a park and rent out at market rate. It would be rented quickly. New construction, view of a new decked park, sufficient parking and great location. Done.

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Re: OFFICIAL - Waddell & Reed - 14th & Baltimore

Post by flyingember »

Midtownkid wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:32 am
The building design was always horrible. I hope they redesign the whole thing. A design with a more vertical movement rather than a clumsy stack of squat boxes would be much more attractive! If they would just offset the tower so it is skinnier and rises on the west side of the site, it could look really dramatic from the skyline with the P&L mostly obscured. While they are at it, they can redesign the lifeless first floor, too.

Here is a rudimentary sketch of alternative design massing. With changes in cladding and tower shape/height I'm sure the podium would need some structural changes; but aesthetically, I wish this could happen.

You're talking about going back and tearing down the garage.

The foundation they poured was designed for the specific building on top of it. No one is willing to pay extra to be able to change the building design after construction begins

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Re: OFFICIAL - Waddell & Reed - 14th & Baltimore

Post by langosta »

You might be able to add more floors if using lighter materials (mass timber).

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Re: OFFICIAL - Waddell & Reed - 14th & Baltimore

Post by flyingember »

langosta wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:48 am
You might be able to add more floors if using lighter materials (mass timber).
Focus on the fire plan. With stick framing, stairwells are always concrete the whole way up as are elevator shafts

The elevators are on the east end of the building and one stairwell is in the west half

Sure, you can move the idea over to the east end but the drawing just shows a lack of thought as to what could actually be done in the project when they don't account for these things.

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Re: OFFICIAL - Waddell & Reed - 14th & Baltimore

Post by langosta »

flyingember wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:32 pm
langosta wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:48 am
You might be able to add more floors if using lighter materials (mass timber).
Focus on the fire plan. With stick framing, stairwells are always concrete the whole way up as are elevator shafts

The elevators are on the east end of the building and one stairwell is in the west half

Sure, you can move the idea over to the east end but the drawing just shows a lack of thought as to what could actually be done in the project when they don't account for these things.
Yea, I wasn't agreeing with the shift the building proposal.

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Re: OFFICIAL - Waddell & Reed - 14th & Baltimore

Post by GRID »

langosta wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:20 pm
beautyfromashes wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:32 pm
GRID wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:00 pm
Okay what? KC is a great city. But it just lacks national appeal and it really needs that if it ever wants to really get going. Correct me if I'm wrong but some of the more aggressive developers in KC right now are from Indy or something right? And the city still to this day can't get its suburban based companies all that interested in the city.
I get the dire mood, but I think we’re making good progress. We have a few high visibility national stars to be proud of. NFL champion and marketing powerhouse with Mahomes, NFL Draft, strong running for World Cup games, new airport, streetcar expansion, stronger number of hotel rooms for large events, etc. At least we’re moving in a positive direction.
WR subleasing the whole building upon open is a whole lot better than moving in and slowly giving up space every year. KC will now have a large speculative office building. The single biggest thing that we claim we need.
Of course. As long as the office building is built and the project is not capped off as a parking structure. That's why I said the city needs to make sure this project is built at planned. If anything, they should make it more sq ft (I know that's not likely). It might take a year, but a building like that would get leased and it might even get leased by a company looking to move from the coasts. Companies are moving from the coastal cities to smaller cities inland, but KC is not a part of that. Having a spec class A space ready for occupancy would get kc some attention from companies looking to relocate.

First things first. Make sure this project is not stalled or just turned into a parking garage. Get the office portion finished.

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Re: OFFICIAL - Waddell & Reed - 14th & Baltimore

Post by GRID »

KC_JAYHAWK wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:04 am
GRID wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:30 pm
KCPowercat wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:12 pm


We aren't down on our luck. Things have honestly never been better.
I guess compared to the KC of the 80's and 90's, but that's not a very high bar. I know KC has lots going to and lots to be proud of, but it just seems like the city can never really get any real momentum going without a major setback or setbacks. KC Star building, the Hyatt Hotel, the Embassy Suites etc. Three Light taking forever to get off the ground. Taking way too long to rebuild downtown highways and get some recreation infrastructure. Not getting any office buildings started before the pandemic and now none are likely to be built. Even little things likes replacing the interesting Broadway bridge with a boring girder bridge or tearing buildings down like the board of ed and having another empty lots blocks from the CBD is just nuts. This giant parking garage could turn into the front door of KC's convention center district if it's not built as originally planned.

KC has to figure out a way to sell itself to the coasts like places like MSP, Charlotte, Nashville, Austin, Denver etc do. KC is still thought of as the Buffalo of the midwest to most people. A has been city. that's not true, but till the city starts getting some serious national attention, it will continue to chug along with lackluster local developers and losing out to mergers etc.

The new airport will be a great start. Not sure how you could even begin to sell KC when the first and last place people see is KCI airport. Nothing screams more "has been" than KCI.

KC is VERY lucky this building even got started and should take advantage of it by making sure it's built to class A corporates HQ standards. It will get leased. But it has to get built first.
I often feel this way as well, but it just seems to be the KC way...:). Getting projects off the ground seems to be the #1 hurdle, even when the developer gets huge incentives (i.e. Cordish). With 1 and 2 light at 95%+ occupancy, I just can't understand why Cordish is dragging their feet. Remember 3 light was originally supposed to be started at the time 2 light was being built. It's been 2 years now since 2 light opened.

But there has been a lot of apartments built in the Rivermarket and more to come, along with the Union Hill area, but most are low rise and don't really stick out, but add valuable infill. The two apartments in the Crossroads (Arterra and Rverb) are the most significant (besides the light towers), and do add something to the skyline, but most important fill empty lots. The Crossroads needs about 5-6 more Arterra's/Rverb's.

And with COVID, you expect things to slow down as companies re-evaluate their office needs. The WR tower will add a nice addition to the skyline and could potentially spur more spec development if WR decides not to re-locate employees and it fills up quickly with other tenants. It's hard to speculate how COVID is going to change things, but I'm certain that more companies will choose to downsize and have some employees continue to work from home. I know my employer, located downtown, is looking to downsize office space in 1KC and re-model the remaining floors to be more open with larger conference rooms and less designated employee space. Time will tell.
I honestly don't understand any of the reasons KC can't do better. Three Light is just one example. Look at W&R. They are getting 100 million in incentives. THAT IS INSANE!!!!!!!!!! But it's normal for those types of incentives to be offered in KC. That is not normal in most other cities. You just don't see these types of percentages of incentives used hardly anywhere else. You might get 20 million for a 300 million dollar project elsewhere. You would think that companies would be tripping over themselves to build in a city like KC which offers a very decent mid-big city lifestyle/culture with the incentives you can get there. But for some reason, it doesn't matter and KC is ignored. And KC's apartment rents are starting to get pretty high for the midwest and once again, big developers that you see in other cities are just not all that interested it building large scale projects there. I don't really understand it. Downtown KC would be a perfect place for a big out of town company to relocate too since the ones in the metro are content in the burbs. What's left of them anyway, since KC has hardly any HQs left especially ones that care about the city. Hallmark is about it and their days are numbered. The stuff KC is getting (rivermarket, low rise stuff) is happening in every city at least as much as KC BTW. Richmond VA probably has more of that type of stuff going up than KC does. Not taking that away from KC. But that's happening everywhere.

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Re: OFFICIAL - Waddell & Reed - 14th & Baltimore

Post by flyingember »

GRID wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:55 pm

I honestly don't understand any of the reasons KC can't do better. Three Light is just one example. Look at W&R. They are getting 100 million in incentives. THAT IS INSANE!!!!!!!!!! But it's normal for those types of incentives to be offered in KC. That is not normal in most other cities. You just don't see these types of percentages of incentives used hardly anywhere else. You might get 20 million for a 300 million dollar project elsewhere. You would think that companies would be tripping over themselves to build in a city like KC which offers a very decent mid-big city lifestyle/culture with the incentives you can get there. But for some reason, it doesn't matter and KC is ignored. And KC's apartment rents are starting to get pretty high for the midwest and once again, big developers that you see in other cities are just not all that interested it building large scale projects there. I don't really understand it. Downtown KC would be a perfect place for a big out of town company to relocate too since the ones in the metro are content in the burbs. What's left of them anyway, since KC has hardly any HQs left especially ones that care about the city. Hallmark is about it and their days are numbered. The stuff KC is getting (rivermarket, low rise stuff) is happening in every city at least as much as KC BTW. Richmond VA probably has more of that type of stuff going up than KC does. Not taking that away from KC. But that's happening everywhere.
You're not looking at the right timescale.

$100 million in incentives is insane *today*

They're making the bet the building will be there in 100 years. Sure, not all will be, but if they win the bet even half of the time the city makes out huge from the incentive gives on the scale of a city. $100 million in incentives is $1 million per year not adjusted for inflation. If we spent $1 in 1920 on incentives, it would be like spending 8 cents today.

They're looking out to 30 years from now when there will be dozens of new buildings where the incentives retired.


As for demand to build, developers re building where the city enables them to build. The city just opened up Second Creek with space for potentially 50,000 homes. The metro area could grow by 5% just off this one area.

And so much of it is apartments when a generation before it would have been 100% single family homes. Go look at Burlington Creek, the apartments are as tall as the brand new ones on the west side of the loop. The apartments at NW Englewood and 169 are the same scale as 3435 Main when you take away the parking pedestal. Low Rise residential is in a boom across the city.

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Re: OFFICIAL - Waddell & Reed - 14th & Baltimore

Post by DColeKC »

In my opinion, the building pales in comparison to the high paying jobs being downtown that we were supposed to see. 1000 great jobs is such a massive blow to the downtown economy.

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Re: OFFICIAL - Waddell & Reed - 14th & Baltimore

Post by earthling »

Real estate sources expressed confidence Thursday that regardless of Waddell & Reed's local footprint in years to come, developers of the 18-story office tower will see the project through to completion. The building is a joint venture between Kansas City-based Americo Life, an affiliate of Financial Holding Corp., and Burns & McDonnell.

Kerri Tyndall, the city's economic development director, agreed, noting in a Friday email statement that the developer already is obligated to finish the building through its construction loans and contracts with contractors.

"It is too late for them to unwind this deal without serious financial repercussions to the developer itself," she said.
Tim Schaffer, president of AREA Real Estate Advisors, said availability of the Waddell & Reed building as a "high quality" tenant option would delay the need for another office tower by 12 to 24 months.
https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/ ... owers.html

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Re: OFFICIAL - Waddell & Reed - 14th & Baltimore

Post by dukuboy1 »

Midtownkid wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:32 am
The building design was always horrible. I hope they redesign the whole thing. A design with a more vertical movement rather than a clumsy stack of squat boxes would be much more attractive! If they would just offset the tower so it is skinnier and rises on the west side of the site, it could look really dramatic from the skyline with the P&L mostly obscured. While they are at it, they can redesign the lifeless first floor, too.

Here is a rudimentary sketch of alternative design massing. With changes in cladding and tower shape/height I'm sure the podium would need some structural changes; but aesthetically, I wish this could happen.

Image
Nice sketch, I do like the vertical aspect with opening to buildings to the north

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Re: OFFICIAL - Waddell & Reed - 14th & Baltimore

Post by dukuboy1 »

earthling wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:22 am
My guess it will become a spec building if new owner doesn't directly use. But the one remaining thing KC lacks for attracting outside biz is a major university within metro, which Nashville, Minneapolis, etc have. Now that the new airport and streetcar momentum is in gear, boosting UMKC/KU into a higher tier research university should be the #1 priority for the metro (well maybe #2 with #1 being violent crime/drug trade). Otherwise we just get back office jobs at best from outside biz looking at KC. And W&R building is pricey for backoffice jobs.
This is something I tend to champion when talking with my friends, business colleagues & peers. We really need to invest & look for opportunities to grow our university presence/reputation especially in research endeavors. STL has 2 highly ranked academic universities in Wash U & SLU in the city. Geographically they don’t have to compete with a major university that is basically located in the suburbs (KU). But growing the Stowers Institute, continued growth of KU Med School, then looking at ways to improve UMKC & Rochurst into nationally renowned academic schools would be awesome. Perhaps look at UMKC leaving the UM system & maybe elevating another school to UM status, similar to how UMSL fits into the landscape of STL. But this is a important aspect & I think is on those lists of BIG 5 ideas or whatever for the city

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Re: OFFICIAL - Waddell & Reed - 14th & Baltimore

Post by FangKC »

Don't forget Kansas City University of Medicine and Biosciences. It's actually the largest medical school in Missouri, and the largest provider of physicians in Missouri, and second largest provider of physicians in Kansas.

There is a lot of room for growth and expansion there as weil.

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Re: OFFICIAL - Waddell & Reed - 14th & Baltimore

Post by WoodDraw »

They fucked up by not slowly moving things downtown when we had a shit governor.

And they got sucked into making fake rankings.

People way overestimate the streetcar here. No one gives a fuck about that and it won’t happen for years. The Max is always probably quicker lol

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Re: OFFICIAL - Waddell & Reed - 14th & Baltimore

Post by WoodDraw »

Like imagine if East village was umkc?

Our biggest problem is like we have a street car that runs in traffic from the campus kind is to downtown kind of and it only takes an hour longer than driving!

Whooooo! Moving to kc

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Re: OFFICIAL - Waddell & Reed - 14th & Baltimore

Post by WoodDraw »

Like imagine if East village was umkc?

Our biggest problem is like we have a street car that runs in traffic from the campus kind is to downtown kind of and it only takes an hour longer than driving!

Whooooo! Moving to kc

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