Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

Issues concerning Downtown as described by the Downtown Council. River to 31st Street, I-35 to Bruce R. Watkins.
earthling
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 8519
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:27 pm
Location: milky way, orion arm

Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

Post by earthling »

Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:30 pm [rimg][/rimg]
Goonies wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:27 pm
Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:00 pm
I’m confused as to how you think we’d solve the problems the city is presently facing if we don’t have development. Incentives are offered by every mid sized city in our region. Why should the city tie its hands in that regard? It’s already difficult to encourage productive development WITH incentives, this lot has been empty for 5 years since the streetcar was completed, and it’s 2 blocks away…the streetcar can help encourage development, but it won’t drive it completely by itself.
The idea that we need an incentive based 5 star hotel to pamper elected servants with is so cringe.
Amenity presently doesn’t exist in KC region. We’re preparing to receive officials from FIFA for a WC hosting bid, who would likely expect at least one hotel of the type for the region. Hardly just for elected servants, it’s about global competitiveness, but I digress
An easier path to a 5-star would be to upgrade Phillips or President, join some rooms for larger suites.
User avatar
normalthings
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 8018
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:52 pm

Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

Post by normalthings »

earthling wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 8:52 am
Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:30 pm [rimg][/rimg]
Goonies wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:27 pm

The idea that we need an incentive based 5 star hotel to pamper elected servants with is so cringe.
Amenity presently doesn’t exist in KC region. We’re preparing to receive officials from FIFA for a WC hosting bid, who would likely expect at least one hotel of the type for the region. Hardly just for elected servants, it’s about global competitiveness, but I digress
An easier path to a 5-star would be to upgrade Phillips or President, join some rooms for larger suites.
Hotel Bravo developers said they had asked Visit KC something alomng the lines of "why did your top 10 conventions you went after say no to KC". Response was lack of luxury hotel and that what upper up scale product that does exist is all all old stock. I think new construction is desired to have the layouts and amenities requested today.
flyingember
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 9862
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

Post by flyingember »

normalthings wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:48 am
Hotel Bravo developers said they had asked Visit KC something alomng the lines of "why did your top 10 conventions you went after say no to KC". Response was lack of luxury hotel and that what upper up scale product that does exist is all all old stock. I think new construction is desired to have the layouts and amenities requested today.
Intrigued that Visit KC is against the project with this claim by the hotel developer.

I wonder if it pre-dated multiple of the new hotels coming online.
User avatar
normalthings
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 8018
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:52 pm

Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

Post by normalthings »

flyingember wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:51 am
normalthings wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:48 am
Hotel Bravo developers said they had asked Visit KC something alomng the lines of "why did your top 10 conventions you went after say no to KC". Response was lack of luxury hotel and that what upper up scale product that does exist is all all old stock. I think new construction is desired to have the layouts and amenities requested today.
Intrigued that Visit KC is against the project with this claim by the hotel developer.

I wonder if it pre-dated multiple of the new hotels coming online.
There is something about the incentive package that VisitKC doesn’t like. Maybe would allow Hotel Bravo to not pay that tax? VisitKC also saying too much hotel capacity but the markets seems to disagree seeing as to more hotels have been proposed since Bravo. I would argue that Hotel Bravo will open in 2024 or 2025, by VisitKC/Hotel Association’s argument the industry should be recovered or nearly there by then.
Link2
Strip mall
Strip mall
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:04 pm

Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

Post by Link2 »

flyingember wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:51 am
normalthings wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:48 am
Hotel Bravo developers said they had asked Visit KC something alomng the lines of "why did your top 10 conventions you went after say no to KC". Response was lack of luxury hotel and that what upper up scale product that does exist is all all old stock. I think new construction is desired to have the layouts and amenities requested today.
Intrigued that Visit KC is against the project with this claim by the hotel developer.

I wonder if it pre-dated multiple of the new hotels coming online.
The conversation referenced during yesterday's presentation (re: Reason conventions say no to KC) occurred approximately 10 years ago prior to new development as well renovations of really every property in the convention package. In fact, he referenced the former VP of Sales at Visit KC by name; a person who has not been at the organization in 8 or so years. Quality of downtown hotels was one reason -- amongst others -- cited by planners when asked why they did not select KC to host their event. The overall quality of said hotels has improved dramatically over the past number of years.
User avatar
TheLastGentleman
Broadway Square
Broadway Square
Posts: 2912
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:27 pm

Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

Post by TheLastGentleman »

Link2 wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:04 amThe conversation referenced during yesterday's presentation (re: Reason conventions say no to KC) occurred approximately 10 years ago prior to new development as well renovations of really every property in the convention package. In fact, he referenced the former VP of Sales at Visit KC by name; a person who has not been at the organization in 8 or so years.
Yeah this project isn't flaky at all..../s
User avatar
AlkaliAxel
Broadway Square
Broadway Square
Posts: 2948
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:58 pm
Location: West Plaza

Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

Post by AlkaliAxel »

I think the main reason this needs to get passed is because of FIFA coming in less than a month.
Link2
Strip mall
Strip mall
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:04 pm

Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

Post by Link2 »

AlkaliAxel wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:40 pm I think the main reason this needs to get passed is because of FIFA coming in less than a month.
There are so many more significant priorities concerning the FIFA 2026 bid. Hotel Bravo being approved/denied really does not register.
User avatar
AlkaliAxel
Broadway Square
Broadway Square
Posts: 2948
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:58 pm
Location: West Plaza

Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

Post by AlkaliAxel »

Link2 wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:46 pm
AlkaliAxel wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:40 pm I think the main reason this needs to get passed is because of FIFA coming in less than a month.
There are so many more significant priorities concerning the FIFA 2026 bid. Hotel Bravo being approved/denied really does not register.
Seems to me the only thing everyone is constantly harping on with KC's 2026 bid is "wE dOnT hAvE aNy hOtElS" so I'm gonna say I do think this helps the bid.
User avatar
normalthings
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 8018
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:52 pm

Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

Post by normalthings »

I think that a Hotel Bravo type product is needed to attract many different types of events, businesses, etc. Having one would be good but our bid does not hinge on 150 rooms.

There are 75,000+ visitors that need to be housed or transported here.
Link2
Strip mall
Strip mall
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:04 pm

Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

Post by Link2 »

AlkaliAxel wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:52 pm
Link2 wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:46 pm
AlkaliAxel wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:40 pm I think the main reason this needs to get passed is because of FIFA coming in less than a month.
There are so many more significant priorities concerning the FIFA 2026 bid. Hotel Bravo being approved/denied really does not register.
Seems to me the only thing everyone is constantly harping on with KC's 2026 bid is "wE dOnT hAvE aNy hOtElS" so I'm gonna say I do think this helps the bid.
Okay. I get that. Having this property is of course a nice addition to the offerings.

But without getting into specifics, the addition of a ~140-unit 4.5/5-star hotel is not really moving the needle either way on a bid of this magnitude. Just as the NFL Draft bid was not influenced by word of a possible ultra-luxury property to be built Downtown. KC being selected by FIFA hinges on much, much larger issues.

Having Loews where it is and at its level of service is much more relevant to the bid.
Last edited by Link2 on Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
GRID
City Hall
City Hall
Posts: 17083
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 12:20 pm
Contact:

Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

Post by GRID »

Link2 wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:09 pm
AlkaliAxel wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:52 pm
Link2 wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:46 pm

There are so many more significant priorities concerning the FIFA 2026 bid. Hotel Bravo being approved/denied really does not register.
Seems to me the only thing everyone is constantly harping on with KC's 2026 bid is "wE dOnT hAvE aNy hOtElS" so I'm gonna say I do think this helps the bid.
Okay. Without getting into specifics, the addition of a ~140-unit 4.5/5-star hotel is not really moving the needle either way on a bid of this magnitude. Just as the NFL Draft bid was not influenced by word of a possible ultra-luxury property to be built Downtown.

Having Loews where it is and at its level of service is much more relevant to the bid.
Exactly. I think this hotel should happen if possible, but it's far from a game changer. It's a smaller hotel that will likely be more in line with a high 4 star hotel than a true 5 star. I think the sort of isolated location alone will keep it from being a true 5 star hotel.

A game changing hotel that would get the attention of the World Cup and other major events would be something major that compliments the new Lowes and the more tired older hotels of KC like Westin, Sheraton and Marriot. A brand like a Grand Hyatt, JW Marriott etc with at least 400 rooms, if not well over 500.

Lowes is great (have stayed there twice now), but KC needs a couple more similar sized modern hotels like that to really compete with most mid sized cities that have more conventions etc. So for that reason, the city should support the project. Hotels follow each other to markets, so even these smaller hotels like Bravo could help land some of the bigger fish.

The number of rooms the Bravo will have isn't going to do much either way (add to the glut or bring in major events), but when combined with other hotels, it will be a nice addition to KC.
Last edited by GRID on Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
AlkaliAxel
Broadway Square
Broadway Square
Posts: 2948
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:58 pm
Location: West Plaza

Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

Post by AlkaliAxel »

Jesus. I’m not saying it’s a “game changer”. All you people have complained about on this bid is hotels. Here’s a hotel. It’s not gonna hurt the bid. I’m just saying since you, GRID and everyone else, keep complaining every day about the egregious lack of hotels (and everything for that matter) here then here’s your shot right to help move the ball. I’m sure it wouldn’t hurt.
Last edited by AlkaliAxel on Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
GRID
City Hall
City Hall
Posts: 17083
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 12:20 pm
Contact:

Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

Post by GRID »

AlkaliAxel wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:37 pm Jesus. I’m not saying it’s a “game changer”. I’m just saying since you, GRID, keep complaining every day about the egregious lack of hotels (and everything for that matter) here then here’s your shot right to help move the ball. I’m sure it wouldn’t hurt the FIFA bid either.
Where am I complaining about the lack of hotels in KC? KC does lack a lot of brands downtown and many of its larger hotels are hanging on to the brands they have. The Westin is not really a Westin type hotel anymore and the old Hyatt Regency tower has already been downgraded to a Sheraton and is really starting to show its age (the new beds are super comfy though!). I stay at these hotels all the time while in KC. I have stayed at all the Downtown KC hotels many times. The plaza hotels are the same. Most of the nicer and larger ones are pretty dated now, but the plaza has a few new ones too.

I'm just saying that a 150 room 4-5 star hotel is not going to move the needle much, but that's all the more reason to build it. KC still needs more new modern hotels downtown.

Luckily the streetcar really helps bring all of KC's urban hotels together when that used to be a big problem. Even plaza hotels will be a quick streetcar ride away from downtown soon.
Link2
Strip mall
Strip mall
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:04 pm

Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

Post by Link2 »

GRID wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:44 pm
AlkaliAxel wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:37 pm Jesus. I’m not saying it’s a “game changer”. I’m just saying since you, GRID, keep complaining every day about the egregious lack of hotels (and everything for that matter) here then here’s your shot right to help move the ball. I’m sure it wouldn’t hurt the FIFA bid either.
Where am I complaining about the lack of hotels in KC? KC does lack a lot of brands downtown and many of its larger hotels are hanging on to the brands they have. The Westin is not really a Westin type hotel anymore and the old Hyatt Regency tower has already been downgraded to a Sheraton and is really starting to show its age (the new beds are super comfy though!). I stay at these hotels all the time while in KC. I have stayed at all the Downtown KC hotels many times. The plaza hotels are the same. Most of the nicer and larger ones are pretty dated now, but the plaza has a few new ones too.

I'm just saying that a 150 room 4-5 star hotel is not going to move the needle much, but that's all the more reason to build it. KC still needs more new modern hotels downtown.

Luckily the streetcar really helps bring all of KC's urban hotels together when that used to be a big problem. Even plaza hotels will be a quick streetcar ride away from downtown soon.
Agreed, the 100-200 room properties don't really enhance KC's ability to land events -- those meeting planners are looking to utilize as few hotels as possible in order to accommodate their required room blocks. Now Loews has greatly enhanced KC's ability to attract conventions that maybe had not seriously considered KC in the past. They also have 800 rooms and are connected to the convention center. And we're very fortunate to have a nearly 1000-room property in the Marriott next door to the Center. The much more pressing concern is the deferred maintenance necessary at the convention center, but that's another topic.

Now if we add a 400-500+ room property along the lines of JW or Grand Hyatt as you mention, or even an Omni, Conrad, W (typically smaller though), and place it in direct proximity to the convention center, we'll see a noticeable, positive impact on the market. And properties such as those create their own level of new demand that would certainly help the destination as a whole.

But adding an incentivized 140-room property at that location does not make much sense simply based on their own framing. And the majority of assumptions presented by their team are based on old data and/or are missing very important context.
User avatar
beautyfromashes
One Park Place
One Park Place
Posts: 7189
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:04 am

Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

Post by beautyfromashes »

If you wait until after the awarding of the World Cup (if KC gets it), you probably have this and other high end hotels built without incentives. Why not hold this until December for something that could change the financial viability and, in turn, requirement for incentives?
Link2
Strip mall
Strip mall
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:04 pm

Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

Post by Link2 »

beautyfromashes wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 4:21 pm If you wait until after the awarding of the World Cup (if KC gets it), you probably have this and other high end hotels built without incentives. Why not hold this until December for something that could change the financial viability and, in turn, requirement for incentives?
That is a great point. An event such as the World Cup would likely create a rush of development. Just as a Super Bowl or political convention typically does in a host destination.
User avatar
AlkaliAxel
Broadway Square
Broadway Square
Posts: 2948
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:58 pm
Location: West Plaza

Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

Post by AlkaliAxel »

beautyfromashes wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 4:21 pm If you wait until after the awarding of the World Cup (if KC gets it), you probably have this and other high end hotels built without incentives. Why not hold this until December for something that could change the financial viability and, in turn, requirement for incentives?
Well, they could, but you'd be waiting until around June 2022 for the announcement that we didn't even get the games anyway. So, what's the point I guess.
User avatar
AlkaliAxel
Broadway Square
Broadway Square
Posts: 2948
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:58 pm
Location: West Plaza

Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

Post by AlkaliAxel »

Goonies wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:21 pm
AlkaliAxel wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:37 pm Jesus. I’m not saying it’s a “game changer”. All you people have complained about on this bid is hotels. Here’s a hotel. It’s not gonna hurt the bid. I’m just saying since you, GRID and everyone else, keep complaining every day about the egregious lack of hotels (and everything for that matter) here then here’s your shot right to help move the ball. I’m sure it wouldn’t hurt.
You must be apart of this project lol
How did you find me out? Haha
User avatar
GRID
City Hall
City Hall
Posts: 17083
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 12:20 pm
Contact:

Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

Post by GRID »


Agreed, the 100-200 room properties don't really enhance KC's ability to land events -- those meeting planners are looking to utilize as few hotels as possible in order to accommodate their required room blocks. Now Loews has greatly enhanced KC's ability to attract conventions that maybe had not seriously considered KC in the past. They also have 800 rooms and are connected to the convention center. And we're very fortunate to have a nearly 1000-room property in the Marriott next door to the Center. The much more pressing concern is the deferred maintenance necessary at the convention center, but that's another topic.

Now if we add a 400-500+ room property along the lines of JW or Grand Hyatt as you mention, or even an Omni, Conrad, W (typically smaller though), and place it in direct proximity to the convention center, we'll see a noticeable, positive impact on the market. And properties such as those create their own level of new demand that would certainly help the destination as a whole.

But adding an incentivized 140-room property at that location does not make much sense simply based on their own framing. And the majority of assumptions presented by their team are based on old data and/or are missing very important context.

^ yeah. Well said.

I guess I'm fine with the Hotel Bravo, but I honestly don't really understand why it needs incentives. They have the land assembled and they probably got it pretty cheap. The hotel will not require any new structured parking that I know of which is one of the main reasons projects in KCMO need incentives. And the project is backed by some of the wealthiest people in the city right?

But as you say "properties such as those create their own level of new demand that would certainly help the destination as a whole". This is why the city should support it. Like said, it will be difficult for that hotel to be a true 5 star hotel till the area around it is more built up with high end development and the area is more of a destination.

However, if the city supports this hotel bravo at the expense of helping another major hotel happen like a Grand Hyatt, JW or Omni, then that's where the problem is. Many of KC's larger hotel properties are very dated now, so for that reason, I think downtown could easily support another new modern 400-800 room hotel.

Be careful not to waste all your effort and resources to bring a relatively small hotel to the city and make people tired subsidizing downtown hotels before a project comes along that really can be a game changer just like the Loews Hotel was.

If this Hotel Bravo were a 700 room JW or or something and it could use the PAC parking garage, now that would be a project worthy of incentives. Now you have a real up to date convention hotel district downtown. Smaller projects like this Bravo or a W or something would just be spin off development at that point.
Post Reply