Old KCPS HQ - 12th & McGee

Issues concerning Downtown as described by the Downtown Council. River to 31st Street, I-35 to Bruce R. Watkins.
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beautyfromashes
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Re: Old KCPS HQ - 12th & McGee

Post by beautyfromashes »

I’m disappointed in all of you...except FangKC.

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Re: Old KCPS HQ - 12th & McGee

Post by Rabble »

I never liked the building and thought I was glad to see it go, but it's hard not to have remorse for a building that's taking so long to destroy.

An idea that's a little late for the dance, but what if they would have demo'd everything except the reinforced concrete columns and beams? A park could have existed under a concrete skeleton until future development. Abstract sculpture and cool shadows would have been better than what we're now going to get.

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beautyfromashes
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Re: Old KCPS HQ - 12th & McGee

Post by beautyfromashes »

Liability issue. I guarantee that skeleton would be stronger than any new construction, however. Could have even added to the structure to bring it to the street. But, hey, grass is good too.

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Re: Old KCPS HQ - 12th & McGee

Post by flyingember »

beautyfromashes wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:32 pm
Liability issue. I guarantee that skeleton would be stronger than any new construction, however.
There's no chance you can guarantee that, not after decades of construction standard changes.

The idea that you could somehow predict the construction methods and strength of a hypothetical, not designed building is absurd

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beautyfromashes
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Re: Old KCPS HQ - 12th & McGee

Post by beautyfromashes »

flyingember wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:41 am
There's no chance you can guarantee that, not after decades of construction standard changes.

The idea that you could somehow predict the construction methods and strength of a hypothetical, not designed building is absurd
Better concrete, more steel. I’d put most any 50 year old building against a new one any day. It shows when they try and take them down.

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Re: Old KCPS HQ - 12th & McGee

Post by flyingember »

beautyfromashes wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:45 am
flyingember wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:41 am
There's no chance you can guarantee that, not after decades of construction standard changes.

The idea that you could somehow predict the construction methods and strength of a hypothetical, not designed building is absurd
Better concrete, more steel. I’d put most any 50 year old building against a new one any day. It shows when they try and take them down.
When you go back to 1970 it's very clear why they used more concrete and steel.

1. Because they weren't using the same scale of computer modeling to identify the actual loads a structure carried, so more projects over-estimated the amount of materials needed.

2. advances in material science. Look at the increased use of stick framing in high rises where laminated wooden beams replace steel for long spans. We have much better concrete today than they did in 1970 too.

https://ggwash.org/view/64626/mass-timb ... -are-built
https://razorbackconcrete.com/list-best ... st-decade/

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beautyfromashes
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Re: Old KCPS HQ - 12th & McGee

Post by beautyfromashes »

flyingember wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:41 am
1. Because they weren't using the same scale of computer modeling to identify the actual loads a structure carried, so more projects over-estimated the amount of materials needed.
Right, we now can use technology to determine the minimum requirements. Back when this building was constructed, they weren’t as sure, so they used much more material to make it beyond question, thus making them stronger and more durable than postmodern construction.

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Re: Old KCPS HQ - 12th & McGee

Post by flyingember »

beautyfromashes wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:05 pm
flyingember wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:41 am
1. Because they weren't using the same scale of computer modeling to identify the actual loads a structure carried, so more projects over-estimated the amount of materials needed.
Right, we now can use technology to determine the minimum requirements. Back when this building was constructed, they weren’t as sure, so they used much more material to make it beyond question, thus making them stronger and more durable than postmodern construction.
Not necessarily. More concrete doesn't make a building stronger, using the right materials and design can make a building much stronger than we could in 1970 because they used too much concrete in the wrong places

Here's 110 pages on the topic just to account for earthquakes
https://www.fema.gov/sites/default/file ... _p-749.pdf

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Re: Old KCPS HQ - 12th & McGee

Post by GRID »

And one more building down making the east side of downtown have the density of downtown Wichita. I still do not understand the point of tearing this building down before any solid plan to build is in place. 60% of the land east of Grand (which is almost half of the downtown loop) is either parking lots or severely under developed. And this just had to come down?

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Re: Old KCPS HQ - 12th & McGee

Post by flyingember »

GRID wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:20 pm
I still do not understand the point of tearing this building down before any solid plan to build is in place.
Probably wanted to reduce their taxable liability in 2021 and be able to report the loss in asset value to reduce their current year income taxes

It's always about money

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Re: Old KCPS HQ - 12th & McGee

Post by Riverite »

No public entity should sell to a private developer that immediately demolished the property full stop

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Re: Old KCPS HQ - 12th & McGee

Post by flyingember »

Riverite wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:13 am
No public entity should sell to a private developer that immediately demolished the property full stop
The board would be fiscally irresponsible if they didn't sell to whoever made the highest bid for the property.

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Re: Old KCPS HQ - 12th & McGee

Post by Riverite »

flyingember wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:56 am
Riverite wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:13 am
No public entity should sell to a private developer that immediately demolished the property full stop
The board would be fiscally irresponsible if they didn't sell to whoever made the highest bid for the property.
Public boards should be run on the basis of stakeholders not shareholders. This could end up costing the city in lost tax revenue.
Public boards should not be run like for profit corporations

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Re: Old KCPS HQ - 12th & McGee

Post by DColeKC »

Riverite wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:13 am
No public entity should sell to a private developer that immediately demolished the property full stop
Even if the money has been spent and the result is the building isn't historic and is too costly to renovate? It sucks, but sometimes the land a building sits on is more valuable as a clean, empty slate.

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Re: Old KCPS HQ - 12th & McGee

Post by beautyfromashes »

flyingember wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:56 am
Riverite wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:13 am
No public entity should sell to a private developer that immediately demolished the property full stop
The board would be fiscally irresponsible if they didn't sell to whoever made the highest bid for the property.
Totally disagree with this! The school board is responsible to not just themselves or even their students but to the general public that provides the funds. This demolition, while perhaps financially best foe them, is a financial loss to the public. That is not the purpose of tax use.

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Re: Old KCPS HQ - 12th & McGee

Post by Riverite »

DColeKC wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:46 pm
Riverite wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:13 am
No public entity should sell to a private developer that immediately demolished the property full stop
Even if the money has been spent and the result is the building isn't historic and is too costly to renovate? It sucks, but sometimes the land a building sits on is more valuable as a clean, empty slate.
Once again public entities should not be run like businesses, they should have the stakeholders in mind. They are not owned by shares anyways

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Re: Old KCPS HQ - 12th & McGee

Post by normalthings »

Riverite wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:49 pm
DColeKC wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:46 pm
Riverite wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:13 am
No public entity should sell to a private developer that immediately demolished the property full stop
Even if the money has been spent and the result is the building isn't historic and is too costly to renovate? It sucks, but sometimes the land a building sits on is more valuable as a clean, empty slate.
Once again public entities should not be run like businesses, they should have the stakeholders in mind. They are not owned by shares anyways
The school boards #1 stakeholders are the students. Selling to the highest bidder gives them more funds to put towards said students. The number #2 stakeholder are tax payers. Selling to the highest bidder provides the best value to said rate payers.

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beautyfromashes
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Re: Old KCPS HQ - 12th & McGee

Post by beautyfromashes »

normalthings wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:02 pm
The school boards #1 stakeholders are the students. Selling to the highest bidder gives them more funds to put towards said students. The number #2 stakeholder are tax payers. Selling to the highest bidder provides the best value to said rate payers.
You're forgetting the value of the building to the general public compared to the field of grass. The public lost in that exchange, in my opinion. Of course, the school district had a sale in place for the building to be renovated and flittered it away.

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Re: Old KCPS HQ - 12th & McGee

Post by normalthings »

beautyfromashes wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:05 pm
normalthings wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:02 pm
The school boards #1 stakeholders are the students. Selling to the highest bidder gives them more funds to put towards said students. The number #2 stakeholder are tax payers. Selling to the highest bidder provides the best value to said rate payers.
You're forgetting the value of the building to the general public compared to the field of grass. The public lost in that exchange, in my opinion. Of course, the school district had a sale in place for the building to be renovated and flittered it away.
So the least involved and least important stakeholder lost out? It is not like a blighted tower in the middle of town benefited the general population much anyways. The school's number 1 priority should be the kids and as far as I can tell this benefitted the kids better than the other option.

I don't really remember a competitive/realistic bidder that would have renovated the property. Do you have a link?

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Re: Old KCPS HQ - 12th & McGee

Post by flyingember »

normalthings wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:11 pm
I don't really remember a competitive/realistic bidder that would have renovated the property. Do you have a link?
They existed, but weren't realistic

https://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/ol ... -preserved
Recent changes to the federal and Missouri historic tax credit programs contributed to thwart several renovation proposals.

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