OFFICIAL - Reverb (1800 Walnut)

Issues concerning Downtown as described by the Downtown Council. River to 31st Street, I-35 to Bruce R. Watkins.
User avatar
smh
Supporter
Posts: 4305
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:40 pm
Location: Central Loop

Re: OFFICIAL - Reverb (1800 Walnut)

Post by smh »

WoodDraw wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:29 pm
smh wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:18 pm
DaveKCMO wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:57 pm I live in a condo building a block away with no major amenities and no bedroom doors and don't miss them at all. Again, I think most people will pick Reverb because of the smaller building size (that would be me), the precise location (Crossroads is arguably cooler than P&L), and the aesthetics.
Then what's the issue? $500 off per month is unprecedented downtown. That's house on fire type stuff.
It’s not unprecedented and it’s not the best they’ve offered.
Well, let me just clarify. Is this $500 each month or just first month. Perhaps I misunderstood.
User avatar
normalthings
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 8018
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:52 pm

Re: OFFICIAL - Reverb (1800 Walnut)

Post by normalthings »

smh wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:58 pm
WoodDraw wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:29 pm
smh wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:18 pm

Then what's the issue? $500 off per month is unprecedented downtown. That's house on fire type stuff.
It’s not unprecedented and it’s not the best they’ve offered.
Well, let me just clarify. Is this $500 each month or just first month. Perhaps I misunderstood.
Their email said per month
CrossroadsUrbanApts
Ambassador
Posts: 141
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:16 pm

Re: OFFICIAL - Reverb (1800 Walnut)

Post by CrossroadsUrbanApts »

I'm a die-hard "the amenity is the city" kind of developer, but in tough markets I think Chris Stritzel has a point. If REVERB had opened in 2017, it would not have been a problem. But City Club and similar are doing well because they are priced the same plus offer a lot more amenities. When I was younger and living in big coastal cities (SF/DC) 'in-building' amenities really weren't a thing. But downtown developers are now copying suburban-style amenities into their larger projects and it does help in head-to-head competition. It's not a trend I relish but I do see it.
User avatar
smh
Supporter
Posts: 4305
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:40 pm
Location: Central Loop

Re: OFFICIAL - Reverb (1800 Walnut)

Post by smh »

normalthings wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 6:16 pm
smh wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:58 pm
WoodDraw wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:29 pm

It’s not unprecedented and it’s not the best they’ve offered.
Well, let me just clarify. Is this $500 each month or just first month. Perhaps I misunderstood.
Their email said per month
That's a lot of coin.
Rabble
Strip mall
Strip mall
Posts: 252
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:58 pm

Re: OFFICIAL - Reverb (1800 Walnut)

Post by Rabble »

WoodDraw wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:12 pm
Rabble wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:47 pm
Chris Stritzel wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:36 pm




As for Downtown Cul De Sacs, please. Spare me that grievance.
And please keep low income residents off of my party floor.
Stupid
I do resemble that. But there is a thread here where everyone is bemoaning the fact that developers will quit building, if the city requires an increased number of low income housing, with any subsidy. The conversation sounded more appropriate for 1994 than 2021.

The suburbs were the result of people wanting to get away from the riff raff (I'm being polite) and be among those like themselves. These new apartment buildings are isolating former suburbanites from the same riff raff. When I'm downtown I like a lot of people on the street, not upstairs on the party floors.
User avatar
normalthings
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 8018
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:52 pm

Re: OFFICIAL - Reverb (1800 Walnut)

Post by normalthings »

West View: They are offering $1750/month units for $1250 per month. floors 3-5
Southeast View: corner units are getting $500 off from their $2500. Applies to those corner units on all floors.

IIRC from the tour, they are letting you lock in a rate today for move in 6 months later (could have confused that with Artistry or City Club).

Reverb's biggest mistake (other than pricing) was to fill the low roof with MEP. They had the opportunity to have a stunning deck space and wasted it.
WoodDraw
Hotel President
Hotel President
Posts: 3348
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:53 pm

Re: OFFICIAL - Reverb (1800 Walnut)

Post by WoodDraw »

normalthings wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:23 pm West View: They are offering $1750/month units for $1250 per month. floors 3-5
Southeast View: corner units are getting $500 off from their $2500. Applies to those corner units on all floors.

IIRC from the tour, they are letting you lock in a rate today for move in 6 months later (could have confused that with Artistry or City Club).

Reverb's biggest mistake (other than pricing) was to fill the low roof with MEP. They had the opportunity to have a stunning deck space and wasted it.
Are those signed lease numbers? Or move in numbers?

They’ve been offering months free for awhile now. If they finally had to drop signed prices that would be significant.
Walker
Strip mall
Strip mall
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:23 pm

Re: OFFICIAL - Reverb (1800 Walnut)

Post by Walker »

Maybe Reverb should offer a free voucher for residents to use at local gyms.
Rabble
Strip mall
Strip mall
Posts: 252
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:58 pm

Re: OFFICIAL - Reverb (1800 Walnut)

Post by Rabble »

CrossroadsUrbanApts wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 6:16 pm I'm a die-hard "the amenity is the city" kind of developer, but in tough markets I think Chris Stritzel has a point. If REVERB had opened in 2017, it would not have been a problem. But City Club and similar are doing well because they are priced the same plus offer a lot more amenities. When I was younger and living in big coastal cities (SF/DC) 'in-building' amenities really weren't a thing. But downtown developers are now copying suburban-style amenities into their larger projects and it does help in head-to-head competition. It's not a trend I relish but I do see it.
If the kids learn the real downtown amenities are on the outside of their apartment buildings and not the inside, downtown apartment development could have a huge advantage over the suburbs. With education by the developer, the costs and the rents could decrease, and the demand increase.
Rabble
Strip mall
Strip mall
Posts: 252
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:58 pm

Re: OFFICIAL - Reverb (1800 Walnut)

Post by Rabble »

Now knowing about it's lack of amenities, I'm becoming a huge fan of this building. It also looks cool from 19th & Oak. The Corrigan building needed a neighbor.

Image
Last edited by Rabble on Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rabble
Strip mall
Strip mall
Posts: 252
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:58 pm

Re: OFFICIAL - Reverb (1800 Walnut)

Post by Rabble »

Chris Stritzel wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:36 pm
Rabble wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:01 pm No doubt major amenities are a requirement for suburban apartment complexes. But for downtown apartment buildings they come off as privileged and isolated. Next will be downtown cul de sacs.
This ain’t it chief.

It’s not privileged and isolated to have amenities in an apartment building (or any type of building with housing for that matter). When you pay a premium for an apartment or condo, you expect the building to include some sort of amenities. You’re in the minority here when it comes down to this view point (as seen in the leasing numbers here compared to other new buildings nearby).


I should be thrilled by the "chief" reference, but I don't think that's your intention. However, I'm glad to be part of the "minority".
User avatar
im2kull
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 3926
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 4:33 pm
Location: KCMO

Re: OFFICIAL - Reverb (1800 Walnut)

Post by im2kull »

normalthings wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:23 pm Reverb's biggest mistake (other than pricing) was to fill the low roof with MEP. They had the opportunity to have a stunning deck space and wasted it.
Easily. And anyone who can't see that is absolutely blind or deaf.
flyingember
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 9862
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: OFFICIAL - Reverb (1800 Walnut)

Post by flyingember »

normalthings wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:23 pm Reverb's biggest mistake (other than pricing) was to fill the low roof with MEP. They had the opportunity to have a stunning deck space and wasted it.
Makes sense. There's tourist attractions in basically every big city to take advantage of views. Places charge money to go up to the top of big towers.

So to not have a private rooftop deck is the sign someone was penny wise and pound foolish.
User avatar
Chris Stritzel
Penntower
Penntower
Posts: 2294
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:27 pm

Re: OFFICIAL - Reverb (1800 Walnut)

Post by Chris Stritzel »

The point I'm trying to make with my previous comments is this: the Midwest is not the Northeast (with maybe the exception of urban Chicago). KC is not New York, Washington, Philly and other places where you can sort of justify the high rents due to good transit access and a high walkability factor. KC, at present, doesn't really offer this. The introduction of the streetcar and the developments happening are helping to bring this "amenity" to KC, but it is still several years away.

In-building amenities are something people in the Midwest want if they live in buildings where rent is pretty high. I'm not saying go full on 5-star resort style with the amenities (although some places do), but offer something that justifies the rent and gives incentive to move in. Alterra does it. One and Two Light do it. City Club does it. Even Artistry does it and their rents aren't as high as the other ones mentioned. When Reverb is advertised as high-end luxury living, and you leave out something that even cheaper apartment buildings offer, you're doing it wrong.

As pointed out on this thread, the lower roof is perhaps one of the biggest blunders here and could've been utilized instead of being a utility level. And, would it have hurt to add a roof to the garage and put an amenity deck on that? Numerous issues with amenities could've been solved right then and there (and honestly should've been). Having toured Reverb, and posted the photos from that tour, the views from the 14th floor are great. I could imagine residents socializing, or just enjoying a summer evening on a rooftop deck instead of some swanky people spending a pretty penny on a cocktail.

Cities like KC, STL, Indy, Omaha and others need to include amenities in their buildings if they wish to achieve high occupancy. It's worked in every single luxury development up to this point, and will work again and again if done right. Reverb, as much as I love it, needs to be improved if they wish to reach higher occupancy numbers. Because right now, when the Reverb Social is open to the public, and pushed as a building amenity to potential residents, that takes away from that amenity. In smaller apartment buildings, you can get away with having no amenities. For example, here in St. Louis, a small, 26-unit apartment building opened up recently on the Southside (3172 Morgan Ford) and includes a small fitness center, bike storage and pet wash. I was personally surprised to see that because of how small the building is. So if they can do it, anyone can. Developers just have to budget for amenities.

In the end, I have no doubts that KC will get to the point where the amenities are outside of the building and in the surrounding neighborhood. Right now though, there is still a lot work to be done. Every new project built and every building renovated moves KC one step closer to that goal. Each project adds more residents to an area, which is more likely to increase the probability that businesses catering to the new residents as "premium amenities outside of apartment complexes" open. Right now though, you can't justify rents for a situation like that when KC is not yet there.
WoodDraw
Hotel President
Hotel President
Posts: 3348
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:53 pm

Re: OFFICIAL - Reverb (1800 Walnut)

Post by WoodDraw »

Also like there’s nothing wrong with it. If I want an outside pool during the summer downtown, tell me where to join?

I spent half the year stuck inside my last apartment with no outdoor space. Not going to apologize for living in a place with a rooftop lol

People can be so judgmental on how they think people should be living. I don’t need help on where to drink my coffee or to do work thank you
CrossroadsUrbanApts
Ambassador
Posts: 141
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:16 pm

Re: OFFICIAL - Reverb (1800 Walnut)

Post by CrossroadsUrbanApts »

Two thoughts on amenities:

1) I agree that the Midwest is not the NE and there are certain expectations for things like, for lack of a better term, suburban-style amenities. But this is changing as more people move to KC from those other areas and bring a new set of expectations. My building on Main has limited in-door parking, so we charge a premium price. I used to joke that if my tenants were moving from NY or Chicago they would never pay for garage parking. They just expected to park on the street and it was no big deal. But if the tenant was coming from Overland Park or similar, parking was a must-have.

2) I think it is a good thing that these expectations are changing. Building suburban-style amenities into a building usually means requiring a very large site so you can build enough apartments to justify the cost. Think City Club, Artistry, etc. I think it healthier for city life if smaller-scale, amenity-lite development was more highly valued/desired. I don't want to go too far and say that it isn't valued at all - I'm making it work - but throwing big incentives at 200+ unit properties to build rooftop bathtubs and lightly-used theater rooms does irk me a bit.
Rabble
Strip mall
Strip mall
Posts: 252
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:58 pm

Re: OFFICIAL - Reverb (1800 Walnut)

Post by Rabble »

How subsidized are the amenity loaded developments?
earthling
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 8519
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:27 pm
Location: milky way, orion arm

Re: OFFICIAL - Reverb (1800 Walnut)

Post by earthling »

It's not necessary for most buildings to have a lot of amenities, especially near streetcar line. The more adventurous a person is, the fewer they might be interested in within building. A mix of product is what is needed in any urban neighborhood. Urban living is about the nearest park being your backyard, the coffee shop is your breakfast patio, the bookstore/library is your den, etc. Downtown and Plaza offer these sufficiently, and a few other areas getting better. Otherwise some might want basic electronic security, some might want doorman with some services, others willing to pay more for broader concierge services.
WoodDraw
Hotel President
Hotel President
Posts: 3348
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:53 pm

Re: OFFICIAL - Reverb (1800 Walnut)

Post by WoodDraw »

CrossroadsUrbanApts wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 9:20 am Two thoughts on amenities:

1) I agree that the Midwest is not the NE and there are certain expectations for things like, for lack of a better term, suburban-style amenities. But this is changing as more people move to KC from those other areas and bring a new set of expectations. My building on Main has limited in-door parking, so we charge a premium price. I used to joke that if my tenants were moving from NY or Chicago they would never pay for garage parking. They just expected to park on the street and it was no big deal. But if the tenant was coming from Overland Park or similar, parking was a must-have.

2) I think it is a good thing that these expectations are changing. Building suburban-style amenities into a building usually means requiring a very large site so you can build enough apartments to justify the cost. Think City Club, Artistry, etc. I think it healthier for city life if smaller-scale, amenity-lite development was more highly valued/desired. I don't want to go too far and say that it isn't valued at all - I'm making it work - but throwing big incentives at 200+ unit properties to build rooftop bathtubs and lightly-used theater rooms does irk me a bit.
I mostly agree with this actually. It’s not healthy if every single development downtown has to be massive. I also find most amenities are used much less than people think.

It’s using the space you do have to its benefit. It’s also chicken and the egg problem - the more every development starts to throw in a pool and gym, it’s harder to get enough people to pay for an independent one.

I disagree with calling them suburban or people need to be adventurous. But not every place needs to be a resort.
Rabble
Strip mall
Strip mall
Posts: 252
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:58 pm

Re: OFFICIAL - Reverb (1800 Walnut)

Post by Rabble »

Developers are free to build whatever their market demands, but there has to be a point when the city stops subsidizing amenity loaded apartments, that are essentially private clubs.
Post Reply