OFFICIAL - Ashland at River Market

Issues concerning Downtown as described by the Downtown Council. River to 31st Street, I-35 to Bruce R. Watkins.
kboish
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Re: OFFICIAL - Ashland at River Market

Post by kboish »

tower wrote:I'm not a huge fan of the faux historical roofline, but whatever. Give it 20 years, and people will think it's actually historical, like the BOA building in Westport.
As I don't know much about the topic- what makes this a faux historical roof line? What is an example of a true historical roof line and what should a contemporary roof line look like? genuine question.

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TheLastGentleman
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Re: OFFICIAL - Ashland at River Market

Post by TheLastGentleman »

It doesn't really look faux historical to me. It just looks like a modern building trying to blend in with its surroundings

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Re: OFFICIAL - Ashland at River Market

Post by flyingember »

TheLastGentleman wrote:It doesn't really look faux historical to me. It just looks like a modern building trying to blend in with its surroundings
To me it's in then "could be better" category but not so much it couldn't be built like this and look good.

And the building there is nothing special so the tear down is "who cares?"

This is one of the best recent renderings. Unlike the KCATA project the streetcar stop is in the right spot.

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Re: OFFICIAL - Ashland at River Market

Post by Riverite »

Looks nice, on another note I'm really excited to finally try that hip store signage

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Re: OFFICIAL - Ashland at River Market

Post by flyingember »

kboish wrote:
tower wrote:I'm not a huge fan of the faux historical roofline, but whatever. Give it 20 years, and people will think it's actually historical, like the BOA building in Westport.
As I don't know much about the topic- what makes this a faux historical roof line? What is an example of a true historical roof line and what should a contemporary roof line look like? genuine question.
It's the cornice. A more modern roofline wouldn't have one

Look at the roofs of midcentury buildings like the various Commerce buildings, your later century structures like Town Pavillion or Two Light. No cornice

Versus the faux historical Centropolis on Grand which has one

This cornice is modern and sleek while Centropolis tried to do a 19th century design

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Re: OFFICIAL - Ashland at River Market

Post by tower »

Glad you asked.

This is what they are trying to emulate:

Image

Many buildings from that same era of those had similar embellishments on the roofs where they stick out at the top, and they look... fine. You could argue that is done that way to protect the facade, which probably is the reason they were made that way. However, now it is done just to look "old-timey".

Hampton Inns are huge abusers of this feature. Actually, it's Hampton Inn's one distinguishing feature:

Image

Now, this is the offending roofline:

Image

See the similarity between that in the Hampton Inn?

Now, there is one, big key difference between that and the Hampton Inn- the roofline thingy (whatever the correct term is) on that new render is actually recessed which minimizes any benefit of facade protection. It is just done to make it look historical, but it is super fake.

This is a picture of the Opus development in Westport that is similar, but doesn't have the roof thing, and looks much better for it, imo.

Image

Idk, maybe people won't care or notice. I really only noticed because I stay at Hamptons a lot so whenever i see a building with that, it reminds me of the Hampton architecture (not in a good way, there is nothing to like about that architecture of Hampton Inns)

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Re: OFFICIAL - Ashland at River Market

Post by tower »

flyingember wrote:
kboish wrote:
tower wrote:I'm not a huge fan of the faux historical roofline, but whatever. Give it 20 years, and people will think it's actually historical, like the BOA building in Westport.
As I don't know much about the topic- what makes this a faux historical roof line? What is an example of a true historical roof line and what should a contemporary roof line look like? genuine question.
It's the cornice. A more modern roofline wouldn't have one

Look at the roofs of midcentury buildings like the various Commerce buildings, your later century structures like Town Pavillion or Two Light. No cornice

Versus the faux historical Centropolis on Grand which has one

This cornice is modern and sleek while Centropolis tried to do a 19th century design
Exactly

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Re: OFFICIAL - Ashland at River Market

Post by flyingember »

Cornices are like everything, they only work if they work with the whole design.

Put your hand over the image and they needed something to break up the flat red brick up to that point. No cornice and it's kind of boring.

Some tall towers are all about cool external detail that goes endlessly to the sky. They use the straight lines to appear taller than they really are
The cornice bending the building top to horizontal turns your eye back to horizontal and grounds the building.

The cornice moves your eye back and forth between the three parts so you notice the fancy connecting material.

The Westport Opus project isn't bad because they don't have a cornice but because it doesn't drive your eye around the project. The patio draws my eye to the top and I get stuck there mentally. Nothing about the image looks any different horizontally. The big project with the Midwest hotel doesn't include a cornice but it uses differing colors through materials and greenery to draw people around the building. River Market West tried this but failed on materials quality more than the attempt being misguided. Go look at the building at Indep and Grand and they're alternating materials to good effect with what can be seen.

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Re: OFFICIAL - Ashland at River Market

Post by tower »

flyingember wrote:Cornices are like everything, they only work if they work with the whole design.

Put your hand over the image and they needed something to break up the flat red brick up to that point. No cornice and it's kind of boring.

Some tall towers are all about cool external detail that goes endlessly to the sky. They use the straight lines to appear taller than they really are
The cornice bending the building top to horizontal turns your eye back to horizontal and grounds the building.

The cornice moves your eye back and forth between the three parts so you notice the fancy connecting material.

The Westport Opus project isn't bad because they don't have a cornice but because it doesn't drive your eye around the project. The patio draws my eye to the top and I get stuck there mentally. Nothing about the image looks any different horizontally. The big project with the Midwest hotel doesn't include a cornice but it uses differing colors through materials and greenery to draw people around the building. River Market West tried this but failed on materials quality more than the attempt being misguided. Go look at the building at Indep and Grand and they're alternating materials to good effect with what can be seen.
I agree that this design looks boring without the cornice, but that doesn't mean they didn't have other options. A rooftop area with an arbor, for example. A smaller cornice is also fine, but this one is so big that it looks a little fake.

This project is still great, I'm glad it is going forward, and what is there now sucks- I just with they would tone down the cornices a couple notches.

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Re: OFFICIAL - Ashland at River Market

Post by TheLastGentleman »

I don't have anything against cornices. They keep buildings from looking like they stop abruptly. It's like a capital on a column.

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Re: OFFICIAL - Ashland at River Market

Post by flyingember »

tower wrote:
I agree that this design looks boring without the cornice, but that doesn't mean they didn't have other options. A rooftop area with an arbor, for example. A smaller cornice is also fine, but this one is so big that it looks a little fake.

This project is still great, I'm glad it is going forward, and what is there now sucks- I just with they would tone down the cornices a couple notches.
I quoted a building with a rooftop area with an arbor. It didn't make a bad design better even though it's not a bad idea. Gardens in this case would be an accessory, not part of the design

And this looks scaled well. It's not half a story tall or sticking out twice the height or tries to add cheap brackets on that do nothing

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Re: OFFICIAL - Ashland at River Market

Post by tower »

The arbor probably isn't the best example, but there are plenty of other ways to visually "cap" a building. For example, on this building, they could have had a row of small windows in the recessed portion, or even just take the brick up a little higher, leaving a shorter cornice. (top to bottom)

Many different types of overhangs, bushes, a roof on balconies etc, can be used as well. Even a different color or material would work.

Visually, it isn't too bad, and I'm sure no one will notice it at street level. I don't like it mainly because the way they designed the cornice feels like they are trying to do it in a fake historical way. It's nothing other buildings haven't done, but I don't really like those either.

It is possible that they will change this on future drafts- NSPJ did 531 main, and the cornices there look much better.

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Re: OFFICIAL - Ashland at River Market

Post by kboish »

tower wrote:Glad you asked.

This is what they are trying to emulate:
...

...
Thanks for the response. It is interesting to me to hear people who seem to know what they are talking about when it comes to architecture or art- it always makes me see things I didn't see before and appreciate architecture, artworks, etc that much more. I've never had much of a knack for describing art/food/music in a critical fashion. I'm lucky to match my socks in the morning. I am more of a- I know what I like and I'll know it when I see it- kind of person.

With that caveat, what can I say? I guess I like the old timey cornices on buildings. I get the cringe reaction to the Hampton Inn style, but that building type seems incomparable to the rendering we were looking at and I don't really see the resemblance between the two.

In any case, I think we all agree this is massively better than most proposals KC sees in terms of scale and relationship to the surrounding environment. It is a fairly prominent location so its good we are getting higher quality proposals right off the bat. The fact that it is a local firm coming out with these designs is all the more encouraging. KC has come a long ways over the past 10-15 years.

edits for clarity
Last edited by kboish on Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: OFFICIAL - Ashland at River Market

Post by Midtownkid »

kboish wrote:
tower wrote:Glad you asked.

This is what they are trying to emulate:
...

...
With that caveat, what can I say? I guess I like the old timey cornices on buildings.
Do not feel like you have to justify your opinion in such detail! If you like it, you like it. If someone else disagrees, so what!

I like the cornice, too. The Hampton Inn looks terrible because the whole thing is beige and built out of EIFS. The proposed facade is broken up by different materials.

Hell, I think the Westport project needs a cornice! 8-[

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OFFICIAL - Ashland at River Market

Post by KCDowntown »

Look what showed up in the KCMO development tracker today...

Can confirm that there are two lower-level retail spaces plus a leasing office on the ground floor.

Link to CPC Submittal

KCDowntown

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Re: OFFICIAL - Ashland at River Market

Post by kboish »

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Re: OFFICIAL - Ashland at River Market

Post by earthling »

remove if already posted, didn't see it...

Collison: Developer Considering New Apartment Project Across from River Market Streetcar Station

https://cityscenekc.com/developer-consi ... r-station/

Image

Image

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Re: OFFICIAL - Ashland at River Market

Post by KCtoBrooklyn »

This is going to the Planning Zoning and Economic Development Committee this Wednesday:
Approving a development plan in Districts UR and DC-15 on approximately a 0.63 acre tract of land generally located at the northwest corner of E. 3rd Street and Grand Boulevard, to allow for a six (6) story mixed use building with a total of 93 dwelling units and 93 parking spaces within a parking garage

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Re: OFFICIAL - Ashland at River Market

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Re: OFFICIAL - Ashland at River Market

Post by hgascoigne »

Damn, for a split second there I thought he was talking about the other 3rd and Grand project.

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