At what point does DT become overbuilt with respect to Apartments

Issues concerning Downtown as described by the Downtown Council. River to 31st Street, I-35 to Bruce R. Watkins.
loftguy
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Re: At what point does DT become overbuilt with respect to Apartments

Post by loftguy »

DaveKCMO wrote:
loftguy wrote:People moving downtown in a generally descending order:
-post grad 20-30 year olds...suburban raised and choosing urban option
-regional relocations from 200 mile radius
-urban dwellers relocating from other major metro areas
-empty nesters - from suburb and exurb
would you say that owner-occupied units changes this order at all?

Absolutely. The buyer universe will probably average 45-50 years old and very few are in the 20-30 year old population.
Most are child-free couples who are either relocated urban dwellers, or the empty nester demographic.

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Re: At what point does DT become overbuilt with respect to Apartments

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

"We need 5,000 apartments now, which would rent for less than $1,000 per month. Not low/moderate income, but for market rate renters"

One of the biggest factors in rent is the size of the space being rented. How small are people willing to go for a one bedroom apt? A studio?

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Re: At what point does DT become overbuilt with respect to Apartments

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Thanks for the suggestions! We will check it out!

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Re: At what point does DT become overbuilt with respect to Apartments

Post by earthling »

maison rustique wrote:Thanks for the suggestions! We will check it out!
When condo shopping, ask how long the building owners have had full control since handoff from developers. Three years+ is ideal for association to figure out right level of dues needed - or accept that dues may go up. Also ask how much they have in reserves - ideally the building has at least $3K per unit ($5K for luxury buildings), so a 50 unit building ideally has $150K reserves, maybe less if not much common area to maintain, more if a lot to maintain. Check how well common areas are maintained, like staircases, elevator appearance, lobby appearance, exercise equipment, crumbled brick/concrete, etc. - they may not have right level of dues if things aren't maintained well (or poor mgmt). Also ask if any major assessments coming up, like elevator replacement, big ticket maintenance, etc. And ask what major assessment they had in recent past and what was replaced/maintained (such as new elevator). When more interested in a specific unit, be sure to understand what is common area and what you are responsible for maintaining.

maison rustique
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Re: At what point does DT become overbuilt with respect to Apartments

Post by maison rustique »

earthling wrote:
maison rustique wrote:Thanks for the suggestions! We will check it out!
When condo shopping, ask how long the building owners have had full control since handoff from developers. Three years+ is ideal for association to figure out right level of dues needed - or accept that dues may go up. Also ask how much they have in reserves - ideally the building has at least $3K per unit ($5K for luxury buildings), so a 50 unit building ideally has $150K reserves, maybe less if not much common area to maintain, more if a lot to maintain. Check how well common areas are maintained, like staircases, elevator appearance, lobby appearance, exercise equipment, crumbled brick/concrete, etc. - they may not have right level of dues if things aren't maintained well (or poor mgmt). Also ask if any major assessments coming up, like elevator replacement, big ticket maintenance, etc. And ask what major assessment they had in recent past and what was replaced/maintained (such as new elevator). When more interested in a specific unit, be sure to understand what is common area and what you are responsible for maintaining.
Wonderful--thank you so much!!!

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Re: At what point does DT become overbuilt with respect to Apartments

Post by loftguy »

Before finalizing a purchase contract, I would reach out to the Condo Association President and ask if there are any major expenditures anticipated in the next five years, or if the condo association is involved in protracted legal issues or litigation.

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Re: At what point does DT become overbuilt with respect to Apartments

Post by Highlander »

loftguy wrote:People moving downtown in a generally descending order:
-post grad 20-30 year olds...suburban raised and choosing urban option
-regional relocations from 200 mile radius
-urban dwellers relocating from other major metro areas
-empty nesters - from suburb and exurb
I'd be interested in knowing where the 4th category (empty nesters) is going in KC. DT condo's? Apartments? townhomes or single family dwellings in DT neighborhoods? We have shopped around for condos and they are as Maison said, very expensive for what you get with (at least in my opinion) ridiculously high HOA fees. My wife does not want a single family dwelling in a DT neighborhood but I've been a bit concerned about HOA fees in the condos - most are higher than my mortgage on my current house.

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Re: At what point does DT become overbuilt with respect to Apartments

Post by kboish »

Highlander wrote:
loftguy wrote:People moving downtown in a generally descending order:
-post grad 20-30 year olds...suburban raised and choosing urban option
-regional relocations from 200 mile radius
-urban dwellers relocating from other major metro areas
-empty nesters - from suburb and exurb
I'd be interested in knowing where the 4th category (empty nesters) is going in KC. DT condo's? Apartments? townhomes or single family dwellings in DT neighborhoods? We have shopped around for condos and they are as Maison said, very expensive for what you get with (at least in my opinion) ridiculously high HOA fees. My wife does not want a single family dwelling in a DT neighborhood but I've been a bit concerned about HOA fees in the condos - most are higher than my mortgage on my current house.
I think there is a huge market for 4-8plex condo type buildings in and around DT just for emptynesters to address what you are looking for. Seems like a glaring hole developers are missing.
Last edited by kboish on Fri Mar 25, 2016 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

maison rustique
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Re: At what point does DT become overbuilt with respect to Apartments

Post by maison rustique »

kboish wrote:
Highlander wrote:
loftguy wrote:People moving downtown in a generally descending order:
-post grad 20-30 year olds...suburban raised and choosing urban option
-regional relocations from 200 mile radius
-urban dwellers relocating from other major metro areas
-empty nesters - from suburb and exurb
I'd be interested in knowing where the 4th category (empty nesters) is going in KC. DT condo's? Apartments? townhomes or single family dwellings in DT neighborhoods? We have shopped around for condos and they are as Maison said, very expensive for what you get with (at least in my opinion) ridiculously high HOA fees. My wife does not want a single family dwelling in a DT neighborhood but I've been a bit concerned about HOA fees in the condos - most are higher than my mortgage on my current house.
I think there is a huge market for 4-8plex condo type buildings in and around DT just for emptynesters to address what what you are looking for. Seems like a glaring hole developers are missing.

Exactly!!!

earthling
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Re: At what point does DT become overbuilt with respect to Apartments

Post by earthling »

In the past seemed many empty nesters downsized to a Plaza condo more than downtown. With more performance arts downtown (PAC, Midland, Folly, recital/dance halls, etc) and more dining, it's been shifting downtown however seems there are more condo options around Plaza as many downtown condos shifted to lease.

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Re: At what point does DT become overbuilt with respect to Apartments

Post by Highlander »

earthling wrote:In the past seemed many empty nesters downsized to a Plaza condo more than downtown. With more performance arts downtown (PAC, Midland, Folly, recital/dance halls, etc) and more dining, it's been shifting downtown however seems there are more condo options around Plaza as many downtown condos shifted to lease.
Actually, as we contemplate retirement, the streetcar in DT is a huge pro for downtown as we consider where to move to. The opportunity to get out and go a la Portland without the issues of a car like parking, driving after a couple of drinks, etc... is very compelling even though it's only a single mile long spline. As much as I love KC, after being up in Portland, we were seriously considering retiring there because of the PT system. I still want to get back to KC but I am very concerned about the idiocy and political agendas in Missouri that could absolutely derail KC or at least delay progress to the point that I am no longer able to enjoy the results.

earthling
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Re: At what point does DT become overbuilt with respect to Apartments

Post by earthling »

Yeah, the streetcar is going to be a major attraction for retired, especially since it is free - and a market and CVS are on the line. Maybe it will spur more condo development downtown but it seems Plaza area has more condo options. And the 'new build' development trend has been 'build to lease' with maybe intent to eventually go condo.

Otherwise agree, KS and MO dark ages state level politics are likely to be harmful to KC metro progress.

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Re: At what point does DT become overbuilt with respect to Apartments

Post by flyingember »

aknowledgeableperson wrote:"We need 5,000 apartments now, which would rent for less than $1,000 per month. Not low/moderate income, but for market rate renters"

One of the biggest factors in rent is the size of the space being rented. How small are people willing to go for a one bedroom apt? A studio?
http://www.kansascity.com/news/business ... 41102.html

The View 2 in the bottoms looks to be adding 250 units in that price range.

And 1000 square feet at $1000 per month is very affordable for downtown living.

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Re: At what point does DT become overbuilt with respect to Apartments

Post by earthling »

This list fits this thread too...
Image

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Re: At what point does DT become overbuilt with respect to Apartments

Post by FangKC »

I think what greater downtown needs (or riverfront to the Plaza) are more individual zero-lot townhouses set on their own private lots--that are not part of a condo association. There might be a small annual subdivision or block fee for snow removal on sidewalks, or to maintain landscaping or replace street trees, etc. The townhouses would be wall-to-wall, but each property owner would be responsible for their own back patio/yard, maintenance, insurance, property taxes, etc. This is not uncommon in larger cities that have historic building stock of townhouses or rowhouses that have this arrangement.

There would need to be a mix of lower-income, middle-income, and higher income product.

The appeal of this type of housing is that it gets around the financing hurdle of people only getting approved for a mortgage after 50 percent of the condos are sold or already owned by other parties. It's not a condo situation. It also gets around the problem of high association fees, or unexpected expenses suddenly imposed on you by a board.

This type of housing would need to be constructed in such a way where the public facades would be long-lasting maintenance-wise (brick), so you don't have to worry about neighbors not painting their house, or fixing their rotting wood porch. This certainly can be done because there are 100-year-old townhouse exteriors in many cities that look virtually the same as the year they were built. In many cities, there are also older townhouses that come in many different sq. footages from one-story buildings to four-story buildings.

You could also easily design these townhouses to have alley-accessible garages and a small courtyard, patio, or yard between the garage and the back of the house. To keep prices down, you could design some townhouses to be smaller, and not have a garage, but parking spaces off the alley. Some could have basements, and some could be built on concrete slabs.

I think there is certainly a market-niche for people who want to own a townhouse, but don't want to deal with the 50 percent buy-in mortgage problem, want a bunch of shared amenities, or have to pay high association fees. This type of housing can also be designed so that there are not a lot of common areas, or landscaping, that need to be maintained. Many townhouse communities in KC have lots of lawn and grassy areas that need need common ownership maintenance. It's unnecessary.

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Re: At what point does DT become overbuilt with respect to Apartments

Post by FangKC »

loftguy wrote:
Eon Blue wrote:
If the "keep those people away" light industrial zoning was removed from Paseo West, it seems like that area could be carpeted with townhomes and rowhouses. (IIRC, it was...once upon a time.)
To put it bluntly, I'm concerned that many have ceded Paseo West to the homeless. Not everyone. Many involved in the HUD Choice Neighborhoods planning are working against this concept, but there are significant powers that see this as the 'solution' for cleaning up downtown.....
I hope this is not the case, or that it can be overcome. Paseo West is an obvious choice for redevelopment. It's going to take some time to accomplish it, but I would hope the City would begin now to plan, and start changing the zoning to allow for redevelopment.

Extend the streetcar down 12th Street to Paseo, put in a couple of nice, small city parks, and you will have new, dense housing development.

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Re: At what point does DT become overbuilt with respect to Apartments

Post by DaveKCMO »

FangKC wrote:I think what greater downtown needs (or riverfront to the Plaza) are more individual zero-lot townhouses set on their own private lots--that are not part of a condo association. There might be a small annual subdivision or block fee for snow removal on sidewalks, or to maintain landscaping or replace street trees, etc. The townhouses would be wall-to-wall, but each property owner would be responsible for their own back patio/yard, maintenance, insurance, property taxes, etc. This is not uncommon in larger cities that have historic building stock of townhouses or rowhouses that have this arrangement.
i spoke to a developer recently who was looking to build this product.

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Re: At what point does DT become overbuilt with respect to Apartments

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

flyingember wrote:
aknowledgeableperson wrote:"We need 5,000 apartments now, which would rent for less than $1,000 per month. Not low/moderate income, but for market rate renters"

One of the biggest factors in rent is the size of the space being rented. How small are people willing to go for a one bedroom apt? A studio?
http://www.kansascity.com/news/business ... 41102.html

The View 2 in the bottoms looks to be adding 250 units in that price range.

And 1000 square feet at $1000 per month is very affordable for downtown living.
But the person wanted something less than $1,000/month. And don't think $999 cuts it. Probably more like $850 (or less) to $900.

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Re: At what point does DT become overbuilt with respect to Apartments

Post by flyingember »

aknowledgeableperson wrote:
flyingember wrote: And 1000 square feet at $1000 per month is very affordable for downtown living.
But the person wanted something less than $1,000/month. And don't think $999 cuts it. Probably more like $850 (or less) to $900.
You didn't read the article apparently

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Re: At what point does DT become overbuilt with respect to Apartments

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

Oh, I did. But the number under $1,000 wasn't given. I would imagine not many at the under $1,000 range. Oh, yes the bottoms technically may be considered downtown but there is quite a difference between the bottoms and the downtown up the hill.
And I don't know about you but an unfinished loft is somewhat different than a finished apartment.
Does this relatively small number of spaces under $1,000 really make a dent in the market demand for lower priced spaces?

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