OFFICIAL - East Village

Issues concerning Downtown as described by the Downtown Council. River to 31st Street, I-35 to Bruce R. Watkins.
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beautyfromashes
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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by beautyfromashes »

WoodDraw wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:27 am I don’t buy the induced demand argument here much for pedestrians.

I buy it for the plaza though.
I'd have to agree with this. This area has been so void of activity for so long that there is no demand to pull from. The last time anything was there was the sporting goods store (I can't even remember it's name now) and that was over 30 years ago. Besides parking to go to City Hall or the courthouse, there has been zero activity. So, it's not like you have people driving through regularly and you just have to attract their interest to stop. You have to get them to make a special trip and find out how to get there. This is why I'm for the baseball stadium. It will force that demand, get people driving through and generate interest in other types of life activities.
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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by flyingember »

It's incredible how multiple people can say induced demand wouldn't work because there's no one there today. That's the opposite of the principle.

Induced demand is the idea that you generate demand for something based on what you build.

If we build a street we generate cars parking. If we build a pedestrian area we generate people sitting outside.


The principle says we need to push for urban designs even if the area is an empty site devoid of any current value, that to do otherwise is to encourage cars and parking and wider roads. It's the idea that if people aren't riding the bus you don't cancel service, you improve it until people do, that we just haven't induced the demand yet.
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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by taxi »

I have to agree with Mister Ember that it would be nice to have a pretty place to sit outside after I go to Express Stop Deli Fresh at 10th and Locust to buy a pack of smokes and a shot of Fireball. In fact, I demand one. Anybody got a light?
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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

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Such an overly simplistic definition of induced demand.
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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by GRID »

Absolutely zero chance the east side of downtown becomes some sort of manufactured pedestrian destination. It has way too many obstacles to overcome. Highways, lack of a transit focal point, government buildings everywhere, it's an island. Pedestrian corridors don't function in areas like that. I don't even think you would get much of a pedestrian corridor even with a baseball stadium down there. Not in that location.

If you put a stadium in the east crossroads, you could probably link a pedestrian corridor to it and have it at least be utilized before and after games as people walk to the stadium from Crown Center, Downtown, west crossroads etc.

I honestly think the east loop should simply be developed block by block organically, preferably with residential to offset the dead blocks of gov buildings. I have never understood a stadium there. It would have terrible views and it would function as a island and just be dead space most of the time along with the gov buildings. Not to mention the blight it's creating by land banking half of downtown.

And since the city/state are not even addressing the east loop, a stadium there would be a traffic disaster and an urban planning blunder. That east loop needs to be ripped out and rebuilt to accommodate stadium traffic and removal of north loop and bust the island that is the east loop by somehow bridging parts of the east loop to tie downtown to Paseo West.

It's a perfect location for an urban corporate campus. It's really sad that Cerner didn't build there. They could have mostly built it out and what's left would have quickly developed.

I honestly think the stadium should be just be rebuilt at the sports complex if you can't find a better place for it downtown or come up with a better plan for it in the east loop.
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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by beautyfromashes »

^I agree with most of this, except I have a hope that a stadium would entice development of the Northeast and jump the highway. It's minimal hope, but there are still a lot of people that live in that area and if it was built up more it could make the East Village conducive to more local foot traffic and transport.
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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

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I still think the best location for a stadium is in the east crossroads up against the west side of 71. It's still very under-utilized for an urban area. There may have to be one or two productive buildings or even recently restored buildings lost, but the overall good would be worth it.

The stadium would be oriented north, but most of the upper deck seats could face more of a northwest view of downtown. The outer upper deck seats could be oriented to mostly face views of crown center and union station and liberty memorial.

The Stadium would be walkable from all parts of greater downtown including the loop, west crossroads, crown center and you can finally bring the 18th and Vine district into the equation. You could walk to the district from the stadium. 18th between the stadium and the NLBM would boom. An east/west streetcar line down truman or 18th would become more viable.

Traffic flow would be 1000 times better than east loop. Best case scenario is that 80-90% will drive and park somewhere downtown. The east loop is just not set up for that. East crossroads gives you far more driving routes and parking options. Plus you have a better system of streets to handle peak game traffic.

I feel like this east village stadium idea is being done in a vacuum without any consideration for what would need to be done with the east loop of the freeway and that is just a massive failure in the making.

Long term traffic: Not just for stadium traffic which will create full blown gridlock, but for addressing the entire loop situation. East loop needs to be widened to carry nearly all the north/south interstate traffic so that the north and west loop can be downgraded. Or a stadium is built in a way making it difficult or impossible to widen the east loop later.

Urban planning standpoint: While widening the east loop, you can actually make it better for the urban fabric at the same time and possibly make more room for a stadium. That east loop has a massive footprint for the traffic it handles today.

Even without a stadium the east loop needs a total rebuild and I'm just amazed that that it's barely even been studied at this point.
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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by TheLastGentleman »

flyingember wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 12:17 pmIf we build a pedestrian area we generate people sitting outside.
There are a lot of examples in kc that demonstrate otherwise
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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

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GRID wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:05 pm Traffic flow would be 1000 times better than east loop. Best case scenario is that 80-90% will drive and park somewhere downtown. The east loop is just not set up for that. East crossroads gives you far more driving routes and parking options. Plus you have a better system of streets to handle peak game traffic.
There's zero chance there's more parking within proximity of east crossroads and even if there is, there's no way it's easier

If we count each level individually there's already ten blocks worth of parking within two blocks of the east loop site, so unless buildings are torn down for garages, this would require clearing ten blocks for surface parking around the site.

The problem with your logic is there's more driving routes but they're all dramatically longer and overlap more while the east loop is much simpler

Directions to east loop

1. from I-35 Clay Co get off on the Paseo or Delaware and head south. Park in Paseo West, northern government district or northern financial district
2. from MO 9 Clay Co, stay on Oak, park N + NW of the stadium
3. from 169 Clay Co, stay on Broadway or get off on 12th, head east on any cross street, park W + NW of the stadium
4. from I-70 KCK, get off on 6th or 12th, park W + NW of the stadium
5. from I-670 KCK, get off on Central, park in P&L OR get off on Truman RD, park in Paseo West or East Crossroads
6. from US 71 Lee's Summit, get off on 22nd or Truman, park in east Crossroads
7. from I-35 Overland Park, get off on 22nd (other side of crossroads) or Broadway, park in central crossroads, P&L or southern govt district
8. South KC, park in central crossroads or P&L
9. US 24, east side (true east), park in Paseo West
10. east side (SE), park in Paseo West

The whole setup ends up as hub spoke and is super easy to understand, you always park the direction you're coming from so you won't cross traffic going another direction
Last edited by flyingember on Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

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TheLastGentleman wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:14 pm
flyingember wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 12:17 pmIf we build a pedestrian area we generate people sitting outside.
There are a lot of examples in kc that demonstrate otherwise
too hard to give any? Make sure you explain how it was before it was built as such
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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by TheLastGentleman »

flyingember wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:28 pmtoo hard to give any? Make sure you explain how it was before it was built as such
You sound like you're giving an essay prompt. Ilus Davis Park, near East Village interestingly, is a major example. Replaced two blocks of the city that, though beat up, could've been quite interesting had they been allowed to exist into the present, and included a historic YMCA building as well as the original version of The Ship, among other old structures. All replaced with a park that rarely sees much activity. Imagine the "before" aerial image with new construction filling in the blanks.

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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by FangKC »

I'd be happy with this for the East Village.

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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by beautyfromashes »

^ si!
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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by flyingember »

TheLastGentleman wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:23 pm
flyingember wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:28 pmtoo hard to give any? Make sure you explain how it was before it was built as such
You sound like you're giving an essay prompt. Ilus Davis Park, near East Village interestingly, is a major example. Replaced two blocks of the city that, though beat up, could've been quite interesting had they been allowed to exist into the present, and included a historic YMCA building as well as the original version of The Ship, among other old structures. All replaced with a park that rarely sees much activity. Imagine the "before" aerial image with new construction filling in the blanks.
That's not proof that induced demand doesn't work for pedestrian infrastrure.

It shows that tear downs are bad and doesn't account for selection bias and have you adjusted for amenities? Is it not used not because of lack of demand but because of lack of amenities like tables, bike racks and the like? Does there need to be further work done before it's full potential can be induced?

Your original claim is pedestrian streets are a bad idea and they shouldn't be built in place of building a street with parking. Do you have any examples showing this to be true?
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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by smh »

flyingember wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:14 am
TheLastGentleman wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:23 pm
flyingember wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:28 pmtoo hard to give any? Make sure you explain how it was before it was built as such
You sound like you're giving an essay prompt. Ilus Davis Park, near East Village interestingly, is a major example. Replaced two blocks of the city that, though beat up, could've been quite interesting had they been allowed to exist into the present, and included a historic YMCA building as well as the original version of The Ship, among other old structures. All replaced with a park that rarely sees much activity. Imagine the "before" aerial image with new construction filling in the blanks.
That's not proof that induced demand doesn't work for pedestrian infrastrure.

It shows that tear downs are bad and doesn't account for selection bias and have you adjusted for amenities? Is it not used not because of lack of demand but because of lack of amenities like tables, bike racks and the like? Does there need to be further work done before it's full potential can be induced?

Your original claim is pedestrian streets are a bad idea and they shouldn't be built in place of building a street with parking. Do you have any examples showing this to be true?
ok
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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by flyingember »

A lazy reply doesn't make me wrong
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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by TheLastGentleman »

flyingember wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:14 amThat's not proof that induced demand doesn't work for pedestrian infrastrure.

It shows that tear downs are bad and doesn't account for selection bias and have you adjusted for amenities? Is it not used not because of lack of demand but because of lack of amenities like tables, bike racks and the like? Does there need to be further work done before it's full potential can be induced?

Your original claim is pedestrian streets are a bad idea and they shouldn't be built in place of building a street with parking. Do you have any examples showing this to be true?
You’ve moved the goalposts so far I can’t even tell where they are anymore
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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by smh »

Also this thread is really confusing induced demand with demand.
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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by WoodDraw »

smh wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:32 pm Also this thread is really confusing induced demand with demand.
Yes
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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by flyingember »

smh wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:32 pm Also this thread is really confusing induced demand with demand.
True

Induced demand as an idea works because what demand we induce is also what demand we fulfill in the supply and demand model
The demand already has to exist to be able to induce it.


It's also really confusing because there's not just two terms

Latent Demand can't be realized due to constraints. This would be like being unable to build a train or road up the side of a mountain. Like the capacity of Everest is limited to the number of people who can climb the few trails.

Induced Demand is existing demand that can be realized by removing constraints. It's having demand for more trails and building more trails. It's demand for more time in a computer lab by buying computers.

Generated Demand is constraints being removed and people using the new capacity. This is like the Katy Freeway where they added lanes and the road just filled up again.


TheLastGentleman wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:07 am Pedestrian spaces do not inherently draw pedestrians. They need to be in spaces where the pedestrian traffic is already intense.
The principle of induced demand would prove otherwise.
To make a stupid argument that we can't build pedestrian friendly areas until people are filling an area to excess is what's wrong.

Fundamentally Induced Demand says there can be *zero* pedestrians in a space and building the right product will produce the people in the area.

In this case, this idea is part of a redevelopment project. So what it would fulfill is housing or offices for people who want to live and work near pedestrian friendly areas. The project induces people who like these things to move to this location because it's not common to find in downtown KC.

Look at how many dog parks are super popular. As I drove past the NKC one the parking lot was past 95% capacity yesterday after work. People with dogs love off leash areas. Our neighbor built a fence just for their dogs. If you live downtown and have to keep your dog on a leash why would you necessarily go all the way to Case Park or the piece of land next to MO 9? Just walk on street instead. An amenity of an off leash area brings people to an area which never went their before.

There was demand, we induced people to go to off leash dog park by making one in a park. Opportunity cost says we could have added parking or a flower garden or a fountain instead and induced people who drive to parks, like flowers or sit next to fountains instead.

But remember, this is a design competition. Not liking the design doesn't make the idea of green space wrong. Case in point, Ilus Davis Park might need tables to eat lunch at to induce demand. Maybe there's demand for a playground.

> 40% of people in the city aren't happy with our parks so there's clearly room to improve how they're programmed.
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