OFFICIAL - East Village

Issues concerning Downtown as described by the Downtown Council. River to 31st Street, I-35 to Bruce R. Watkins.
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Pork Chop
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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by Pork Chop »

East Village, a place that will not be developed for another decade, most likely. By the time the decision is made for a downtown ballpark (which even if it does goes downtown, it will most likely not be in the East Village) it will be around 20 years or so when the concept first came up to develop the East Village. This area is like the P&L District development history all over again.

As for the 12th and Charlotte site, Brien Starner, president of RideKC Development, said the board delayed action because of the possibility the larger East Village development area could be the site of a potential downtown ballpark for the Kansas City Royals.

“With the discussions on a ballpark stadium, we decided to put it on hold,” he said. “It’s probably not wise to move forward until it becomes clearer on what might happen.”
https://cityscenekc.com/new-development ... er-market/

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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by alejandro46 »

Sounds like a good proposal, and I did forget that Jonathan Arnold had Berkshire money, the fact that they were proposing another similar building while the first one is still finishing up is really exciting for them and the area. There are more surface parking lots along the streetcar line out there to get rid of!

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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by FangKC »

IMO, holding off is a mistake. A developer proposed a plan for an East Village parcel. Take what you can get now. Waiting 10 years you will probably end up with nothing anyway. If you start accepting proposals now, the entire East Village could be built out by the time it's decided to build a downtown stadium or not.

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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by flyingember »

FangKC wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:11 am
If you start accepting proposals now, the entire East Village could be built out by the time it's decided to build a downtown stadium or not.
I seriously doubt that.

The convention hotel project was announced in May 2015. It opens April 2020. That's 1-2 years after the proposal stage for a big project. (ignoring it took 10 years for the hotel)

It takes 5-6 years from approval to opening day for a stadium. We can expect there's 1-2 years of public processes in front of it also.

Based on your saying we could have the build out complete before deciding where to put the stadium, the build out needs to be finished in 2024 at the latest. Based on the need for 7 years to get there, the East Village needs to start planning in 2017 to 2018.

So it's already not feasible for that to be true.

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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by FangKC »

You are speaking gibberish.

No location has been designated. Absent an announcement that is the preferred location, and land banking, if there were no plans for a downtown stadium at all--in that world, you certainly could build out the East Village in 10 years IF you had a proactive city effort, and RFPs going out.

All this talk is just talk at this point. If they were serious about a downtown stadium, the preferred parcel would have been land-banked by now. Two of the sites previously mentioned have already been taken out of contention (19th and Cherry and the Union Station east yards). Van Trust is openly shopping drawings for the east yards.

Even by your own account, we are two years behind in planning and land-banking for a stadium opening in 2024, which I don't know is even a real date. The Royals lease on Kaufmann expires in 2031.

We certainly could still be talking about this 10 years from now with no decision--just yearly extensions on the Kaufmann lease. And is there really an appetite for a downtown stadium among the fanbase, or is this just some developers' dream.

I predict they will delay development of the EV for this, and it won't even go there. It will be Stan Durwood's original clustef--k all over again.

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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by flyingember »

FangKC wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:59 am
You are speaking gibberish.

Even by your own account, we are two years behind in planning and land-banking for a stadium opening in 2024, which I don't know is even a real date. The Royals lease on Kaufmann expires in 2031.
You were talking about the east village build out being done first before a stadium can be built. Basically saying the timeframe for a stadium is so long we could finish a different major project first. We're past that point.

2024 is the realistic latest the stadium site would need to be finalized in order to make a 2032 opening date.
Based on other projects, 2017-18 is when East Village project would need to be approved to be done before 2024.
So the timeline to finish the east village first has come and gone.

I would give good odds they're 4-5 years into background talks on the stadium. Remember, the convention hotel was a ten year discussion before it was announced and a stadium is at complex, if not more.

If they're discussing the East Village site the land is banked already through city ownership and a single other owner, so they just need to get this one developer to agree to hold. They're not sitting on the land to make money from parking.

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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by KCDowntown »

There are 4 different property owners in the East Village from the SE corner of 10th & Cherry to the NW corner of 12th & Charlotte. They each own approximately 25% of the land.
  • City of Kansas City
  • Van Trust (Block 66)
  • UMB Bank
  • JTB Properties (parking lot operator)
I've been watching these properties for a couple of months (and will continue to do so) to see if anything changes hands.

KCDowntown

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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by flyingember »

Part of the Kemper family has an owership stake, so no worries there.

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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by normalthings »

FangKC wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:59 am
If they were serious about a downtown stadium, the preferred parcel would have been land-banked.
1. I’ve heard from close sources that this is where the new ownership group would like to go. They already have about 50% of the land under their control(City + UMB).

2. I’d rather see this get land banked than the northloop.

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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by WoodDraw »

normalthings wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:48 pm
FangKC wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:59 am
If they were serious about a downtown stadium, the preferred parcel would have been land-banked.
1. I’ve heard from close sources that this is where the new ownership group would like to go. They already have about 50% of the land under their control(City + UMB).

2. I’d rather see this get land banked than the northloop.
Vantrust is onboard too. The land is effectively banked.

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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by GRID »

So it looks like East Village is now being set aside as a serious candidate for a ballpark in the future. This happened pretty fast and while it still has a uphill battle, it's interesting and will be fun to see what happens.

I have never really liked the east village site location for a ballpark, but It's starting to look like it might be the only option left in another ten years.

So if the ballpark did go there...

Which way would it face? I feel like it would have to look north or northeast, so the views from the seats toward the field would have a view of, well nothing at all. The concourses would have all the nice views of downtown, crossroads and crown center. This is not huge deal I guess, but just saying. There would be the possibility of new structures being built north and east of the stadium, but this brings up the other major issue with this site. The East loop.

That east loop would wall in the stadium making development around it difficult. Not only that, but the east loop is a traffic flow nightmare and would catastrophically fail to deal with stadium traffic. So any major stadium development would have to include a complete rebuild of the east loop. The good news is there is quite a bit of right of way to rebuild the east loop in a more proper way. First remove all the little on and off ramps from the east loop and pull people to and from the highway system from further away access points. You would need to figure out a way to route most of the game traffic down routes like Truman and Paseo. Then cover the east loop where it is currently recessed north of 12th. Now you can start to redevelop the Paseo West area and that would effectively become the "new ballpark neighborhood" of residential, hotels etc that you see in places like Denver and San Diego.

I may not be making a lot of sense here, so I may try to make a graphic or something.

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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by TheLastGentleman »

The only landmarks that would be visible from the east village location might be the bond bridge and that battered up Romanesque church on 9th. I don’t think the river would even be in view

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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by horizons82 »

Disagree that the East Village inherently would have poor views. If the stadium was positioned with home plate & the pitching mound on a NW/SE axis, visitors would be able to see parts of 909 Walnut, Commerce Tower, The Old Reserve, Whittaker Courthouse, and whatever comes of the North Loop from within the stadium.

However they position it, can only get better from looking at I-70, Woodspring Suites, and the Adam's Mark. :lol:

Agree with GRID though, that the East Loop layout and exit locations will present a logistical/traffic issue.

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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by GRID »

TheLastGentleman wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:44 pm
The only landmarks that would be visible from the east village location might be the bond bridge and that battered up Romanesque church on 9th. I don’t think the river would even be in view
I know MLB likes stadiums to face east or northeast, but I wonder if they could make an exception KC's case because all the buildings would basically black the sun when it setting low to the west.

The view from the stadium to the east from village east would be worse than it is now at tsc. I would hope that it happens though because the thought of the entire east side of the loop remaining a wasteland for another decade more for no reason is kind of depressing.

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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by GRID »

I didn't have time to do much, but did do a crude image of a stadium. You can see how much it would take up leaving only a few blocks inside the loop for development. I also oriented the stadium to face northwest to get the most of the views of the city. That's Denver's stadium which is way too big for the Royals which don't draw well. KC only needs a 35k seat stadium and only needs that when they are doing well. But I think you would have to redo the east loop and then cap the northern part of it to bring the west Paseo area into the picture. You could also build a large parking structure on the east side of the highway to the south replacing a few of those little industrial buildings and just have a footbridge crossing the interstate.

I really think this would set off major gentrification of the area between the loop and the Paseo.

Image

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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by grovester »

I don't think that qualifies as gentrification.

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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by horizons82 »

IIRC the best field to study would be Target Field: newer stadium, compact even by urban standards, and a <40k seat count.

My suspicion is that the stadium would need to hug closer to Cherry St than what you’re showing GRID. If it did, then the land remaining on either side of I70 between 10th & 12th becomes parking garages with more direct highway access. The underpass currently for 11th st would then become a ped pathway for the eastern garages. I would also not be surprised if a garage is constructed over 670 between Holmes and Charlotte to help capture JoCo traffic.

The main issue with this whole setup is I’d expect MoDoT to fight losing the 11th street exits, given the direct access to the CBD.

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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by GRID »

Those exits to 10th and 12th should not be there. Downtown KC has like dozens of "exits" I can't think of another city in the country with so many ways to get on and off the freeway system within a mile of downtown. Modot needs to take away those exits and make the east loop nothing but through lanes. That would also fix congestion on nb 71 in that area. Game traffic would get off on Truman from 71. Northland traffic will come down oak or broadway or paseo, 70 traffic can take paseo, truman etc and JoCo traffic can take truman, 12th, 14th from the other side of loop. There are so many exits, that people should disperse all over. Most of downtown streets are totally empty today, even during "rush hour", especially on the east half of the loop. MoDot just needs to fix a few bottlenecks and those exists on the east loop are one of the bottlenecks.

I agree a parking structure over the area east of Charlotte would work well. That parking lot east of the federal building would become very valuable.

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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by FangKC »

There is no way to know the traffic impacts of removing interstate exit ramps at the same time you are cutting off three city through streets (Holmes, Charlotte, 11th). Yes, you can reroute traffic to other exits, but then through streets are also being blocked, so do you then create traffic bottlenecks? Traffic studies would have to be done. One also has to take into account the future impact of changing those configurations if Paseo West also gets redeveloped, and produces more traffic than it does now.

I'm not a big fan of blocking Holmes, Charlotte, and 11th Street to create a superblock for a stadium inside the Loop. Then create big parking garages as well. I'd much rather have those five blocks be filled with a mix of office and apartment buildings and create year-round activity, not just a few hours a week during baseball season.

The other question I'd pose is will this create tax revenue for the City, or another tax hole downtown? It would seem to me that the office/apartment mix would produce more revenue for the City in the long-term, and yes, we do need to be concerned about that too.

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Re: OFFICIAL - East Village

Post by Highlander »

FangKC wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:27 am
There is no way to know the traffic impacts of removing interstate exit ramps at the same time you are cutting off three city through streets (Holmes, Charlotte, 11th). Yes, you can reroute traffic to other exits, but then through streets are also being blocked, so do you then create traffic bottlenecks? Traffic studies would have to be done. One also has to take into account the future impact of changing those configurations if Paseo West also gets redeveloped, and produces more traffic than it does now.

I'm not a big fan of blocking Holmes, Charlotte, and 11th Street to create a superblock for a stadium inside the Loop. Then create big parking garages as well. I'd much rather have those five blocks be filled with a mix of office and apartment buildings and create year-round activity, not just a few hours a week during baseball season.

The other question I'd pose is will this create tax revenue for the City, or another tax hole downtown? It would seem to me that the office/apartment mix would produce more revenue for the City in the long-term, and yes, we do need to be concerned about that too.
20,000 people coming downtown 81X per year for a baseball game (not to mention other uses of the stadium) and then spending money downtown on food/alcohol would generate a ton of tax revenue. The vast majority of those people now simply go to the TSC from Johnson County (or wherever the are coming from) and return home without any additional money spent. While there are multitudes of sites remaining downtown for mixed used development, the number of sites a baseball stadium could occupy have become rather small.

It's a testament to how far downtown and urban KC has come in the last 10-20 years that we have to scratch our heads over potential sites for a downtown baseball stadium. 20 years ago we could have put a stadium practically anywhere downtown and surrounding area with minimal disturbance.

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