Film Row building threatened with demolition

[Demosthenes]

It's interesting how many retail spaces beneath garages sit vacant. This Webster space, the one on Main where Souperman used to be, the City Center Square garage on Baltimore where Italian Gardens used to be, etc.

I don't think any retail has ever gone into the space in the City Center garage. It is currently just a gravel pit. Really sad because it could be a great space in a pretty dense part of the city. Don't know what the price is, but I hear that the owner is difficult to work with.

And maybe it is more difficult to lure retail into the ground floor of a garage. No matter how nice the garage looks, it seems that these spaces struggle more than most. Even the large Oak Street garage that is across from City Hall struggles mightily. Those spaces always seem full, but with nothing successful. They just aren't even inviting to people on the street.

The only retail spaces beneath garages that are successful in KC that I can think of are on the Plaza. Am I missing any big ones?

Edit: just thought of the downtown CVS. And that is an ugly garage. But it would be pretty damn hard for a CVS not to be successful downtown. We could use at least a couple more. Still, that's a good business that a garage snagged.

Edit again: Also just thought of the large garage on the 1100 block of Grand, so obviously there are examples of success stories. I wish there were more of them though, because garages with ground floor retail could be a big part of KC densifying over the coming years. Retail must be able to succeed in such situations though.

Ideally we just start wrapping apartments and offices around parking garages like in the Power and Light building renovation. I think retail would succeed much easier in this scenario. Of course, wrapped garages aren't always possible. We need to start using them whenever possible though.

[FangKC]

This may be a simplistic answer, but I think it's because of ceiling heights. If the retail area was a little higher on the first floor of the garage, they would be less cave-like. I don't think retail operations are attracted to that type of space. I think the reason the Plaza garage retail does better is simply because the ceiling heights for the stores are higher.

One can accomplish this two ways. Increase the retail space height to two floors of the garage. On simply make the first floor of the garage a bit higher than the upper levels. Let's say the current height of garage retail space is 10 feet. Increase it to 15 feet on the first floor of the garage.

I think another problem with some garage retail spaces is signage. The City garage at 12th and Oak for example. I think if there weren't those inset entrances, it would help. It tends to hide the storefronts. I also think that if signage was allowed to hang over the sidewalk, instead of being placed flat on the facade of the building, it would be a psychological boost for marketing the location.

My background is marketing communications and advertising. One of the most important things for a retail store is effective signage. This is a problem with a lot of downtown retail spaces. I don't know if the City has too restrictive signage ordinances or what. But I think it is a real problem. I know when I used to walk around downtown when I lived on Quality Hill, visitors were always stopping me to ask me where to find something--like a restaurant. They had often been in the area where a restaurant was, but failed to see the sign.

Visitors to our downtown don't want to wander aimlessly trying to find a restaurant. They will give up after a few blocks and go back to the hotel and eat. This leaves a negative impression on visitors, and conventioneers, and they won't want to come back. It also takes the fun out of exploring a new city. Bleak, sterile blocks don't encourage a visitor to explore, and proceed down a block.

This was a big problem for the City Center Square food court. Visitors didn't know it was there. This one thing could explain why some retail spots just fail in downtown. It's a simple reason, but it does contribute. If people can't find your restaurant, they will give up.

Look here for example:

http://tinyurl.com/pj94tks

In this example, one is looking north on Grand from 12th. Just a couple of years ago, there are two or three restaurants along the 1100 block of Grand, but you can't see them from this intersection. Now only Jimmy Johns is left, but you can't see it from here.

http://tinyurl.com/mjts7q3

In this example, standing mid-block on E. 11th between Grand and Walnut, there is a KFC/Pizza Hut down the street, but a visitor can't see that there is. No hanging signage to get the attention of someone unfamiliar with downtown.

http://tinyurl.com/nv3rvjx

Here one is looking south on Main from 11th Street. There are four retail establishments on the block ahead: Starbucks, Jason's Deli, Planet Sub, and Ingredient. Yet, a visitor cannot see any indication of these places from this vantage point.

http://tinyurl.com/ohsymfr

A Downtown Marriott guest is standing at the intersection of 12th and Wyandotte. A restaurant, the Silver Spoon, is just yards to the north, but you can't see a sign.

http://tinyurl.com/llu53vn

The same Downtown Marriott guest is walking north of Broadway from 12th Street. At the next intersection, there is a Quiznos, a Pizza Hut Express, and The Quaff. The visitor can't see if it is worth it to continue down this street.

http://tinyurl.com/ne29bbw

It's a problem for visitors to our downtown to find anything. Then we wonder why retail and restaurants have such a hard time staying open.

I will make one final point. When one looks at historic photos of downtown streets, we can easily see what businesses existed then, and in what building they were located. If one would take photos of downtown now, people in the future will look at those photos and not be able to tell if any businesses existed in the buildings shown. They will have no clue what existed in our time. Think about that.

I would make the argument that our downtown is too sterile, and devoid of visual stimulation and activity. Vibrant cities have signage, because that is a part of our human existence. Signs communicate to use what is going on. It tells us where things are.

You can accomplish these things without large garish signage. We don't need flashing rooftop billboards. We just need appropriate signals that if we walk on down this block, we will find food or drink.

[Demosthenes]

Man you make an excellent point that I haven't been thinking much of lately. Signage is really a HUGE part of this. The whole vibrancy of downtown really depends on it. Walk around Power and Light at night, and is it any wonder that it is by far the most vibrant part of downtown? No way. There are big lit-up signs everywhere! It's like our Times Square.

I tell you what, I live a block off of Main right now over on Baltimore around 12th, and almost every time I walk south I am automatically drawn toward Main. I almost have to walk down Main Street. It is instinctual. The view down Main, even in the day time, is full of signs giving off the feeling of activity. Off in the distance I can see Liberty Memorial, which creates a great visual terminus, even though I don't plan on walking that far. And at night this is 10 times more so. All the lights just pull me down that street.

As you say, this is not by accident. It is all about the signage. And then once you get past PNL it gets dark quickly and you feel like you are out of the vibrancy. But you can see the lit up sign of Anton's in the distance and it pulls you further. You see the newly renovated large buildings that are lit up, and the large mural on the side of that tall building lit up, and it pulls you down the street further. This is essential.

We really need to get this effect working in the heart of downtown. Along Petticoat Lane, Grand, Walnut, Main north of 12th, really almost everywhere between Power and Light and the River Market. It is way to sterile. Has a very boring feel. And it is no wonder people don't generally want to go to this area to do anything, even though there are nice restaurants and bars.

You know, a lot of people have complained about Power and Light over the years, but I think as time goes on it will look very good. It is already starting to "wear in" a bit I'd say. It was really designed well. These are some of our very best streets from an urban design standpoint, and it accomplishes this with only one and two story buildings for the most part, and virtually no old buildings. Really impressive.

[aknowledgeableperson]

This was a big problem for the City Center Square food court. Visitors didn't know it was there. This one thing could explain why some retail spots just fail in downtown. It's a simple reason, but it does contribute. If people can't find your restaurant, they will give up.

Up to at least 2003 that food court (7 or 8 restaurants I believe) was always busy during the lunch period. McDonalds was extremely busy and it had its own seating. The food court (10 or so restaurants) in the (ATT) Town Pavilion was extremely busy at its start and it was on the 3rd floor with seating on two floors. Of course many people were ATT employees.
Both places closed after lunch though since there wasn't much traffic.

[FangKC]

AKP, so I guess you are saying they failed?

[aknowledgeableperson]

AKP, so I guess you are saying they failed?

I forgot to add the food court in the building to the south across from City Center Square (can't remember the building's name now).
Of course all three depended to a degree on the captive workers in the building.
ATT's food court, and retail space on the second floor, started to disappear when that version of ATT left the building or reduced it's presence. Would imagine the next to go was the one in the building mentioned above. It never really took off although its Winstead's was quite popular. I would imagine the CCS one started to go downhill when Mickey D's left and building occupancy decreased.
Yes, one could say they failed but I don't think the failure was due to signage. The failure was due more to the nature of the office building they were located and the nature of downtown itself at that period of time. Both CCS and TP had casual dining restaurants that were visible to a degree and they failed. Phish heads had no problem finding CCS when that band was in town nor did the kids from FFA or Skills.
Downtown of today is quite different that the one 10 to 15 years ago. Even with signage they would have failed. They were just victims of the times.

[FangKC]

Yeah, and the fact that millions of visitors to downtown annually since Sprint Center, P&L, and Kauffman opened wouldn't probably have found the food courts (if they were still open) because of lack of good signage.

Again, I will recount the tale of living downtown. I used to walk two or three times a week to the old library at 12th and McGee from Quality Hill. Almost every time I did, I would get stopped at least once each way, and sometimes up to three times, by an out-of-town visitor, or conventioneer, asking me to help them find a restaurant. Town Pavilion at that time still had their food court, and Winstead's was open in One KC Place. I would have to point the places out to them because they had walked right past all three buildings with food courts in them.

As a person who has made his living in marketing communications for the vast majority of his working life, I concluded early on that there was a real problem with signage in downtown. I knew this because one could stand at 12th and Main near three corner buildings with food places in them, and not visually be able to conclude this fact.

Restaurants operate on marginal volumes of business. The head count makes a difference. If they are 20 people short of their head count goal daily for several months in a row, they shut down. The different for a McDonald's, or Jerry's Fish and Chip House, being in an unseen food court, or in a corner spot with visual signage and in line of view, may be 200 additional people daily, and that makes the difference whether they stay open or not. It may not sound like much, but there is a cut-off point where they throw in the towel.

If signs make no difference, you should call all the retail stores in any strip shopping center and let them know they wasted their money, and that their signs contribute nothing to people knowing they are there.

[FangKC]

Man you make an excellent point that I haven't been thinking much of lately. Signage is really a HUGE part of this. The whole vibrancy of downtown really depends on it. Walk around Power and Light at night, and is it any wonder that it is by far the most vibrant part of downtown? No way. There are big lit-up signs everywhere! It's like our Times Square.

...

As you say, this is not by accident. It is all about the signage. And then once you get past PNL it gets dark quickly and you feel like you are out of the vibrancy. But you can see the lit up sign of Anton's in the distance and it pulls you further. You see the newly renovated large buildings that are lit up, and the large mural on the side of that tall building lit up, and it pulls you down the street further. This is essential.

Demo, this photo is for you. See walking west down this block of 12th Street in the past shows what businesses you are approaching.

In the past:



Today the same view looking west down 12th towards Main:

[pash]

.

[FangKC]

We also have a problem with the wrong things being in the wrong places. For example, the Bonfil's Building on the SW corner of 12th and Grand has several retail slots designed in that building, because it was a traditional retail building. But instead, we have the NAIA adminstrative offices in there. Those offices should be in an office building, and that spaced used for small fast counter-type restaurants and other retail.

The same thing goes for the Missouri Bank Building at 11th and Main. The Main frontage used to be a store. There is a second entrance on 11th that could be the entrance to the bank.

The old Commerce Tower wasted its' street-level space with that big lobby, and put the retail spaces in that subterranean level.

One Kansas City Place badly designed its' streetlevel as well. The Bank of America branch should be on the other side where Winstead's was, and the space where the BOA is should have been retail facing the street. Bank customers could enter the branch office through the lobby. No biggie.

[WSPanic]

We also have a problem with the wrong things being in the wrong places. For example, the Bonfil's Building on the SW corner of 12th and Grand has several retail slots designed in that building, because it was a traditional retail building. But instead, we have the NAIA adminstrative offices in there. Those offices should be in an office building, and that spaced used for small fast counter-type restaurants and other retail.

The same thing goes for the Missouri Bank Building at 11th and Main. The Main frontage used to be a store. There is a second entrance on 11th that could be the entrance to the bank.

The old Commerce Tower wasted its' street-level space with that big lobby, and put the retail spaces in that subterranean level.

One Kansas City Place badly designed its' streetlevel as well. The Bank of America branch should be on the other side where Winstead's was, and the space where the BOA is should have been retail facing the street. Bank customers could enter the branch office through the lobby. No biggie.

They could certainly change it now, but a bank actually used to be a place to go and conduct business. This the flagship/HQ branch of the bannk - a large, impressive lobby is not a waste considering those terms. Just because everyone on this board wants street level retail in every single nook and cranny available, doesn't mean every "missed opportunity" is a waste of space. I love the Commerce lobby.

[KCMax]

We also have a problem with the wrong things being in the wrong places. For example, the Bonfil's Building on the SW corner of 12th and Grand has several retail slots designed in that building, because it was a traditional retail building. But instead, we have the NAIA adminstrative offices in there. Those offices should be in an office building, and that spaced used for small fast counter-type restaurants and other retail.

The same thing goes for the Missouri Bank Building at 11th and Main. The Main frontage used to be a store. There is a second entrance on 11th that could be the entrance to the bank.

The old Commerce Tower wasted its' street-level space with that big lobby, and put the retail spaces in that subterranean level.

One Kansas City Place badly designed its' streetlevel as well. The Bank of America branch should be on the other side where Winstead's was, and the space where the BOA is should have been retail facing the street. Bank customers could enter the branch office through the lobby. No biggie.

They could certainly change it now, but a bank actually used to be a place to go and conduct business. This the flagship/HQ branch of the bannk - a large, impressive lobby is not a waste considering those terms. Just because everyone on this board wants street level retail in every single nook and cranny available, doesn't mean every "missed opportunity" is a waste of space. I love the Commerce lobby.

I think you're referring to the Commerce Trust Building which does have an operating bank in the lobby. Fang is referring to the Commerce Tower, which just has a big empty lobby (information/security, a couple of offices, escalator down to Neo's, barber).

[Demosthenes]

Oh yes Fang, that is one of my favorite pictures. Though that street's today shot is something I never want to see again lol.

We also have a problem with the wrong things being in the wrong places. For example, the Bonfil's Building on the SW corner of 12th and Grand has several retail slots designed in that building, because it was a traditional retail building. But instead, we have the NAIA adminstrative offices in there. Those offices should be in an office building, and that spaced used for small fast counter-type restaurants and other retail.

The same thing goes for the Missouri Bank Building at 11th and Main. The Main frontage used to be a store. There is a second entrance on 11th that could be the entrance to the bank.

The old Commerce Tower wasted its' street-level space with that big lobby, and put the retail spaces in that subterranean level.

One Kansas City Place badly designed its' streetlevel as well. The Bank of America branch should be on the other side where Winstead's was, and the space where the BOA is should have been retail facing the street. Bank customers could enter the branch office through the lobby. No biggie.

Yes very good points. A lot of misuse in downtown buildings. One KC Place is truly one of the worst buildings in terms of its street level. The 12th Street side is just a huge blank wall. Soooo dumb. And notice how there is no street parking allowed around the building? We really need to get parking on 12th street. There's plenty of room, so it makes no sense not to include it.

Where exactly was winstead's at?

[FangKC]

Where exactly was winstead's at?

Winstead's was in this space.

http://tinyurl.com/katk6ls

[Demosthenes]

Where exactly was winstead's at?

Winstead's was in this space.

http://tinyurl.com/katk6ls

Ahh, interesting. That space would work much better as a restaurant than what is there now.

Btw... something that really annoys me is that there isn't an atm on the outside of this building. This is the major Bank of America in KC and it's downtown. It makes no sense. It's really annoying that I can only access the atm when the building is open.

[rxlexi]

Btw... something that really annoys me is that there isn't an atm on the outside of this building. This is the major Bank of America in KC and it's downtown. It makes no sense. It's really annoying that I can only access the atm when the building is open.

This is so, so true.

[Demosthenes]

Btw... something that really annoys me is that there isn't an atm on the outside of this building. This is the major Bank of America in KC and it's downtown. It makes no sense. It's really annoying that I can only access the atm when the building is open.

This is so, so true.

Yes, I am going to try and get them to install an outdoor atm somehow. At least email them and hope they listen. Seems like it wouldn't be too hard to do and would benefit a lot of people.

And on that note, I am sorry that I helped derail this thread. I will stop talking about these other buildings here.

So I walked by Webster Garage last night and it was very empty and quiet. Shocking!

[rxlexi]

I'm not happy about the Webster garage either, but I have to think it was more of a forward-looking move assuming new construction to the north, UMKC/arts campus to the east, and the continued resurgence of the immediate area.

But then again Shirley Helzberg made it pretty clear that Webster House "needed" the parking.

[flyingember]

Bank of America is actually reducing the number of ATMs in their network on purpose. Don't expect movement on that.

[Demosthenes]

Bank of America is actually reducing the number of ATMs in their network on purpose. Don't expect movement on that.

Why on earth? And even if that's so, I would think this would be one location where an ATM is necessary.