Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Issues concerning Downtown as described by the Downtown Council. River to 31st Street, I-35 to Bruce R. Watkins.
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normalthings
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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by normalthings »

Anthony_Hugo98 wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:32 pm
Unsure how receptive an American audience would be to the idea, but I’ve seen many examples of shopping malls throughout Europe converting what we’re once department store anchor spaces into grocery/supermarket spaces. It’s saved many malls in the area of Italy I’m currently in, even generating enough revenue that one of the malls is actually expanding rn. I know that CC isn’t a mall in the general sense of the suburban style of malls, but it could fill a void within the area, increase foot traffic into the area, and provide a much needed amenity to the local community. Again, it would be an interesting sell to the American crowd, as it isn’t super prevalent in the U.S., but it is a viable use to the space.
I think that would work well if Crown Center built out their residential and it had a connection to the mall part.

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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by shinatoo »

normalthings wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:46 pm
Anthony_Hugo98 wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:32 pm
Unsure how receptive an American audience would be to the idea, but I’ve seen many examples of shopping malls throughout Europe converting what we’re once department store anchor spaces into grocery/supermarket spaces. It’s saved many malls in the area of Italy I’m currently in, even generating enough revenue that one of the malls is actually expanding rn. I know that CC isn’t a mall in the general sense of the suburban style of malls, but it could fill a void within the area, increase foot traffic into the area, and provide a much needed amenity to the local community. Again, it would be an interesting sell to the American crowd, as it isn’t super prevalent in the U.S., but it is a viable use to the space.
I think that would work well if Crown Center built out their residential and it had a connection to the mall part.
I was having a conversation with the guy at the convenence store in in Crown Center. He was lamenting how much influence the hotel has over his operation. He used to have a TV out front that people would congrigate around to watch the Chiefs games and buy beer and snacks from his store. That was shut down by the hotel since it compeated with their bar. Also said he is "forced" to keep his prices high so they aren't undercutting what the hotel has in their pantry and room service.

Not sure if any of that is true, and if so, how much sway the hotel would have on a grocery store in the mall.
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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by moderne »

Crown Center never really fully exploited its "city within a city" theme. Never built enough residential to support retail so it remained a festival shopping spot. If they had built all 3 condo towers and more apartments that in turn supported every day services it would have been a more attractive total package. Who would not consider living in such a place when in January's brutal grip food is just a coat-free honky tube away.

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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

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moderne wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:58 pm
Crown Center never really fully exploited its "city within a city" theme. Never built enough residential to support retail so it remained a festival shopping spot. If they had built all 3 condo towers and more apartments that in turn supported every day services it would have been a more attractive total package. Who would not consider living in such a place when in January's brutal grip food is just a coat-free honky tube away.
The ethnic slurs aren't the worst part of this post

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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

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fragileember

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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by herrfrank »

Well I guess I'll take some blame for (re)kindling the phrase "honky tube" on these boards several years ago. It was an expression that my brother overheard circa 1979 when we (as kids) used to walk from the Main Street garage via skyway (the really primitive one from the 1950s) to the Commerce Tower where my family banked. Apparently the phrase achieved critical currency in Atlanta a few years earlier, during the development of John Portman's Peachtree Center and Plaza.

Happy New Year!

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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by FangKC »

Who bets that Halls will close down, and that is where Target will eventually land?

Hallmark has given up trying to program retail at CC, and being a land developer themselves.

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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by Chris Stritzel »

FangKC wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:46 pm
Who bets that Halls will close down, and that is where Target will eventually land?

Hallmark has given up trying to program retail at CC, and being a land developer themselves.
I could see Halls eventually moving from their third floor "trophy" space into something smaller. Or getting rid of the high priced clothing for something more inline with what normal shoppers can buy. Target at Crown Center would be an interesting scenario. It would certainly bring a lot of people there.

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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by FangKC »

The Halls space is the only place downtown that I can think of where Target could land that doesn't require building a new space for them. That space was built to house a large retail store, and is already connected to some other retail spaces in the complex. The parking problem is solved with existing parking garages. Many places where Target could rent space in a new structure downtown (Copaken project at 12th and Grand) would also require some dedicated parking for Target. This would either be a surface lot or in a garage in that project.

The only other location--I can think of--is technically outside of downtown, but still on the streetcar route. That would be if Main Street Cadillac if ever they moved. That car dealership building might be modified into a Target.

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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

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moderne wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:58 pm
Crown Center never really fully exploited its "city within a city" theme. Never built enough residential to support retail so it remained a festival shopping spot. If they had built all 3 condo towers and more apartments that in turn supported every day services it would have been a more attractive total package. Who would not consider living in such a place when in January's brutal grip food is just a coat-free honky tube away.
One of the early Crown Center design concepts.

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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by GRID »

Oh wow, I never thought about a Target in the Halls location. That would be an absolutely perfect location for an urban target for so many reasons.

Large "big box" retail store without having to build a big box in the urban core.

High profile location, can even put signage on the bridge over grand.

Plenty of exiting structured parking.

Would bring a ton of regular local foot traffic to crown center shops, but still be a popular destination for people in all the surrounding offices and hotels.

I mean, this is such a great idea. Hopefully Crown Center is listening.

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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by Riverite »

GRID wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:31 pm
Oh wow, I never thought about a Target in the Halls location. That would be an absolutely perfect location for an urban target for so many reasons.

Large "big box" retail store without having to build a big box in the urban core.

High profile location, can even put signage on the bridge over grand.

Plenty of exiting structured parking.

Would bring a ton of regular local foot traffic to crown center shops, but still be a popular destination for people in all the surrounding offices and hotels.

I mean, this is such a great idea. Hopefully Crown Center is listening.
Agreed, would probably see a huge drive in residential demand adjacent to crown center. Would love to see some more skyscrapers in that lovation

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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by normalthings »

Riverite wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:32 pm
GRID wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:31 pm
Oh wow, I never thought about a Target in the Halls location. That would be an absolutely perfect location for an urban target for so many reasons.

Large "big box" retail store without having to build a big box in the urban core.

High profile location, can even put signage on the bridge over grand.

Plenty of exiting structured parking.

Would bring a ton of regular local foot traffic to crown center shops, but still be a popular destination for people in all the surrounding offices and hotels.

I mean, this is such a great idea. Hopefully Crown Center is listening.
Agreed, would probably see a huge drive in residential demand adjacent to crown center. Would love to see some more skyscrapers in that lovation
The grass lots that front Grand south of San Fran Tower could be built on. Wouldn't be too much to connect it into Halls/Shopping Center.

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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by moderne »

Still would like to see the 2 additional residential towers on that lot. Surely if built now they would not be the matched set envisioned 45 years ago. CC has not put up a new building this century. Wonder what something au courrant would look like here. The '80's and '90's office buildings kept the masonry look of the original with a slight nod to post modernism.

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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by earthling »

As Hallmark/Hall's enterprises adjust and as KC draws more national attention with investors/developers, won't be surprising if Crown Center and related properties are sold this decade, maybe sooner than later. On one hand would hate to see that happen OTOH a bigger ticket owner could actually complete CC's now 50 year old vision within this decade, refining it with TOD in mind. Seems they don't have the resources to follow through the rest on their own.

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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by FangKC »

normalthings wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:56 pm

The grass lots that front Grand south of San Fran Tower could be built on. Wouldn't be too much to connect it into Halls/Shopping Center.

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moderne wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 3:31 pm
Still would like to see the 2 additional residential towers on that lot. Surely if built now they would not be the matched set envisioned 45 years ago. CC has not put up a new building this century. Wonder what something au courrant would look like here. The '80's and '90's office buildings kept the masonry look of the original with a slight nod to post modernism.
There is room for a twin tower, and another L-shaped building. I imagine a new tower would be mostly glass.

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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by normalthings »

Older adult living. Everything you need indoors but connected to transit+ culture nearby.

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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by cknab1 »

Hallmark was going to convert our clubhouse by the pool to two residences plus build a 17 story tower in 2008. But the financial collapse hit and it never happened. I haven't heard any talk about it since. They did sell the parking lots south of the Hallmark complex where Gallerie has several hundred apartments plus townhouses for rent/sell. They seem to be filling up quickly.

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Re: Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

Post by normalthings »

cknab1 wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:25 am
Hallmark was going to convert our clubhouse by the pool to two residences plus build a 17 story tower in 2008. But the financial collapse hit and it never happened. I haven't heard any talk about it since. They did sell the parking lots south of the Hallmark complex where Gallerie has several hundred apartments plus townhouses for rent/sell. They seem to be filling up quickly.
Do you think that current residents would support a new tower being built? I would love to see CC finally get built out.

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