Crown Center: urban disaster, shining star, or in-between

[herrfrank]

I was looking at the penthouse in SF Tower a few years ago. Amazing space, huge deck overlooking DT and Liberty Memorial. Modern kitchen. Started at $1.5m and literally got down to $50k. Confused until I saw that the HOA fees were $10k/month.

>> These HOA fees are comparable to those paid by folks in South Florida; living in high rise developments (ask how I know..) The hidden expenses of these residences are that residents are paying for commons areas, which include the elevators (big money), roof and window maintenance, parking garages, etc.

I too looked at the San-Fran-Tower and had been put-off by the HOA levels.

My suspicion is that the infrastructure maintenance of Crown Center would have been diluted by more residents; had the other children of San-Fran tower materialized. There had once been an architectural model containing three total high-rise towers.

The top four floors (28, 29, 30, and 31) of San Francisco Tower are considered "penthouse" floors. The six or seven units there are subject to a much higher per-foot HOA (3x approximately) than the other floors. Consequently, several penthouse units have been abandoned to the building and are currently empty. Two units are owned by a businessman who had negotiated a life-interest reduction in his HOA during initial construction -- he is in his late 80s, however.

Only one other penthouse is occupied, IIRC, and current in paying the high HOA.

The trustees tried recently (like last month) to amend the building bylaws so that they might sell these abandoned units. Amendments require 80% of owners to consent -- a high hurdle. The amendment fell just short, so these units will likely remain empty. No one wants a five-figure monthly HOA.

The HOAs on the lower floors are not insane -- they are fairly standard for a doorman high-rise with full amenities (pool, parking, tennis, landscaping). If anything, Crown Center Redevelopment subsidizes the costs of SFT and Santa Fe Place -- security, some common maintenance, the private corridor to Halls, etc., etc.

[normalthings]

So, in the next 10 years, you think no tower of size can be built there? Even with the streetcar line extended past that parcel?

Since the last residential tower was built in Crown Center (in 1976), more law firms have moved to Crown Center. The Federal Reserve Bank was built across the street. Children's Mercy Hospital is going to be adding hundreds of medical research jobs in its' new tower. No demand for premium housing with great views around Crown Center?

3000 research jobs in the CM tower, probably close to 3500 jobs overall when you include support positions

The new building will be 375,000 square feet. One KC Place by comparison is about 865k.

3000 people is enough to drive demand for at least one new residential tower

I agree that the new Research Tower will likely bring enough jobs for a new condo tower. In fact, I had a discussion about that last week...

@FANG Yes, I don’t see a 20+ floor office building going into 27th and Main anytime soon. Even if there is demand for one, I’d rather see two mid-sized buildings 10-15 floors.

[earthling]

CC could develop lower rise buildings with strong enough foundation for adding more floors later, such as the P&L spot that targets Strata.

[normalthings]

Understand this is just a plan, but...have to agree with Fang that a park at 27th/Main, adjacent to a streetcar stop and directly across from a larger park doesn't make a lot of sense. There's potential for a really vibrant area on 27th street under this plan, but it's like they completely gave up on 26th, which would become a dead zone of parking garages.

Wonder if there will be any outcry from Union Hill residents whose views would be blocked even more with taller buildings?

Parking Garage Row

[beautyfromashes]

The top four floors (28, 29, 30, and 31) of San Francisco Tower are considered "penthouse" floors.

herrfrank- Thanks for the full backstory. You could almost see it playing out on the unit I was watching. Huge price drops week after week until almost giving away. Then, put up for rent below the cost of the HOA monthly fees. I imagined a group of kids whose parent had passed away trying to figure out what to do with this weight around their neck. I even thought about looking into negotiating a purchase through the HOA with a fee reduction but rationalized that there was no way that would work. Beautiful apartment though! Had an elevator. Two decks. Really modern.

[kenrbnj]

I was looking at the penthouse in SF Tower a few years ago. Amazing space, huge deck overlooking DT and Liberty Memorial. Modern kitchen. Started at $1.5m and literally got down to $50k. Confused until I saw that the HOA fees were $10k/month.

>> These HOA fees are comparable to those paid by folks in South Florida; living in high rise developments (ask how I know..) The hidden expenses of these residences are that residents are paying for commons areas, which include the elevators (big money), roof and window maintenance, parking garages, etc.

I too looked at the San-Fran-Tower and had been put-off by the HOA levels.

My suspicion is that the infrastructure maintenance of Crown Center would have been diluted by more residents; had the other children of San-Fran tower materialized. There had once been an architectural model containing three total high-rise towers.

The top four floors (28, 29, 30, and 31) of San Francisco Tower are considered "penthouse" floors. The six or seven units there are subject to a much higher per-foot HOA (3x approximately) than the other floors. Consequently, several penthouse units have been abandoned to the building and are currently empty. Two units are owned by a businessman who had negotiated a life-interest reduction in his HOA during initial construction -- he is in his late 80s, however.

Only one other penthouse is occupied, IIRC, and current in paying the high HOA.

The trustees tried recently (like last month) to amend the building bylaws so that they might sell these abandoned units. Amendments require 80% of owners to consent -- a high hurdle. The amendment fell just short, so these units will likely remain empty. No one wants a five-figure monthly HOA.

The HOAs on the lower floors are not insane -- they are fairly standard for a doorman high-rise with full amenities (pool, parking, tennis, landscaping). If anything, Crown Center Redevelopment subsidizes the costs of SFT and Santa Fe Place -- security, some common maintenance, the private corridor to Halls, etc., etc.

That makes perfect sense.. I appreciate this insight!

Amazing how the HOA levels are profoundly high; such were the units are abandoned. That's a shame the HOA would have opted for abandoned units, which I presume generate zero HOA revenue, rather than to bring the values down-to-earth.

I guess that is the business of the homeowners...

[beautyfromashes]

Perhaps those who are voting against the fee reduction want to have a different use for the units, like resident event space. ?

[TheLastGentleman]

Fang, what is the 25 story building you were referring to earlier?

[kenrbnj]

HerrFrank; do you know, based on your HOA financial statement, what aspects of San Francisco are driving the HOA costs??

Elevators? Structured Parking? Other special fees?

Since you reported your story this morning; I did look at "Zillow" listings, with associated HOAs. Even by South Florida standards, San Francisco Tower is exceedingly high. --My hunch is that Crown Center Development Corp. would have been aghast with such lofty fees, as it was the intent to bring residents downtown.

[herrfrank]

I don't live there, just know people that do.

In my opinion, HOAs are 'reasonable' if they remain under 25% of the fair market rental value -- for example, an apartment that would sell for 800k to 1MM should rent for circa 4000 per month, and the HOA fee should not exceed 1000 per month. Like taxes, if HOAs start to get over a threshold, they affect the sales price. For property taxes, that annual threshold is somewhere near 2% of FMV. For HOAs, it's closer to 1%.

[kenrbnj]

I kinda-sorta agree. Depends on the services.

For example, a subject property in S. Fl has a HOA fee of $720/mo - 3-bed/3-bath townhome on the water in Delray Beach area, two garages in the house, two outdoor spaces. What does one get for it? Landscape (impeccable)-fresh limes for Gin and Tonic. Cable Television, All Security, clubhouse/pool/spa/fitness, INSURANCE (big deal - on water), commons area.

That's a good deal, in my opinion.

For comparison consider: https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2510 ... 5415_zpid/

$1,211 HOA per month. 2 bed, 2 bath. San Fran Tower seems to have a pool; a nice commons area, structured parking (cannot determine how many spaces), landscape.

Not to suggest the tail wagging the dog; but the HOA fees have depressed the property value at SanFran. Something is amiss. If they could get their expenses under control, the property would be worth more, I believe.

That's too bad; as I always hoped for additional buildings to be added.

HerrFrank: Do your acquaintances in SanFran regard the quality of life as "good"?

[herrfrank]

Yes, they do. It's a doorman building with a tennis club, a pool, and a landscaped garden above street level, plus covered parking. The linked listing with the 1200/ month HOA fee for one of the x04 units at 1600 square feet doesn't seem crazy, but it probably keeps the sales price down from where it could be. If the SFT board could sell the abandoned units, they could lower the HOAs throughout the building.

My HOA fee is 1100/ month in Palm Beach on a 1100-foot unit and we don't have tennis courts like San Francisco Tower (valuations are much higher in PB than in KC, however). To contrast, I was just in Washington state (Olympic Peninsula) last weekend -- my Mom's HOA is 900/ month on a property with a fair market value of maybe 250k. That strikes me as excessive.

HOAs are reflective of Cost of Living, which is going up.

[earthling]

HOA also depends on number of amenities/services it provides or has to maintain. Swimming pools, large exercise rooms with a lot of equipment, number of door people, maintenance, receiving people. Staff can be as large as 12 or more people depending on what the building wants to offer. And some are more service oriented than others, such as a receiving person that will bring package to your door, trash pickup from kitchen receptacle that is accessed from hallway, provide light plumbing work or call you a cab - some door staff even run errands.

[moderne]

Is this just discussion of HOA or is anyone going to bring up another leg of condo cost? What are the ranges of property value and property tax. Didn't these lose abatment years ago while Park Place, Walstreet, and the View still have over a decade before sticker shock?

[KCDowntown]

I've heard that the HOA fees at SF Tower have a unconventional arrangement. The rates gradually increase as you get higher in the building and, I may be mistaken on this point, I'm pretty sure I remember hearing that empty units aren't required to pay HOA fees. The combination of this has resulted in occupied units near the top having exorbitant HOA dues.

KCDowntown

[FangKC]

KCMO has had two 20+ story towers go up recently in the P&L District. Cordish is planning a 32-story next, and then another 25-story tower.

What's the 25-story?

Fang, what is the 25 story building you were referring to earlier?

Emporis lists Three Light as a 32-story, and Four Light as the 25-story.

[TheLastGentleman]

Emporis lists Three Light as a 32-story, and Four Light as the 25-story.

That's disappointing. 4 light was always the tallest in the renderings and looked really good.

[herrfrank]

HOA also depends on number of amenities/services it provides or has to maintain. Swimming pools, large exercise rooms with a lot of equipment, number of door people, maintenance, receiving people. Staff can be as large as 12 or more people depending on what the building wants to offer. And some are more service oriented than others, such as a receiving person that will bring package to your door, trash pickup from kitchen receptacle that is accessed from hallway, provide light plumbing work or call you a cab - some door staff even run errands.

My old 15-storey building on W 58 St in NYC had exactly 12 staff. (I remember this because they all received tips at Christmas -- $1200 cash every year) I doubt that San Francisco Tower has the same number, but it's probably more than six. My current 40-unit building in PB has five staff -- our pool is cleaned by a service. I've occasionally seen the day porter trimming a hedge, but the staffs' primary tasks are inside....

Both West-Fifty-Eighth and Palm Beach would (1) organize a cab/ handle car services; (2) hang delivered dry cleaning in my closet; (3) run quick errands (for an additional gratuity, btw); (4) manage all incoming packages/ deliveries/ mail; and (5) do light tasks like taking out the trash from my kitchen if I forgot. And, of course, they open the door (while keeping out those who don't belong). If a contractor needs to work in my unit, they will oversee the work while I am travelling.

That is the whole point of living in a doorman building. SFT is the same. This is the level of service expected of a full-service building, and why they are tipped at Xmas. I had a college friend on Lex whose building was "security only" meaning that the doorman wore a blue uniform (sky blue, not NYPD blue) and did zero extra tasks. They wouldn't accept deliveries. They didn't hold open the door. What is the point?

I think the HOA problem at SFT has to do with the high number of abandoned units currently paying no fees. Once the board resolves this issue, the monthly rate will revert to the norm for a full-service building.

[kenrbnj]

HerrFrank, your statement is spot-on: In NYC, a doorman was a necessary convenience; as that person was the "passive guard". The sidewalk is a public space. Your W. 58th place: Nice touch that they'd take deliveries.

Crown Center? Hardly the foot traffic.. It would be hard to justify a staff of 2-4 doormen.

From memory: My Delray place has 100 homes. All work is contracted: pool, cleaning of club, property mgmt, water features/fountains, landscape, security, elevators (in club), and general maintenance. $720 per unit, per month. Home valuations are $450K - $1.4M. That smells about right.

The penthouse floors of SanFran Tower, had they been situated in Delray/WPB; $2M-$4M easily. To pay $435K for this property? Absurdly cheap. HOA fees seem pegged to properties valued at 3x - 5x; at minimum.

Tennis Court; I'd bet maintenance, lights and power: A few thousand. Pool? A few thousand. Elevators: $10K-$12K per car per year. Groundskeeping? A few thousand. I must me missing something!

Question: Is Santa Fe Tower able to share those amenities?

Also, I am wildly curious what the HOA fees are in the other high-rises (owned) buildings, especially those near the Plaza. Alameda tower or whatever..

[earthling]

Many Plaza condos also offer these services, some with very large staffs. Have been for decades. As I mentioned earlier, the HOA range is typically $800-$1200 for 2br - those like Sulgrave, Regency to Parkway Towers. Alameda Tower is around $1800 for 2br but they also get the concierge services from Hotel International I believe, or at least at one time did (when it was Ritz Carlton).