New Convention Hotel talk

[KCPowercat]

I know this has been mentioned in various threads, but thought it would be good to have it's own...

In a study released today, city consultants recommend a ~1000 room convention level hotel be built downtown within 4 years.

Article:
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascit ... 547966.htm

Questions: 

Good idea?

Location?

Who flags it?


The article is full of errors...from even the city's own CVA leader....in one quote, he says there are 800 hotel rooms walkable to Bartle.  OK, the Marriott itself has ~1000 rooms...not to mention the Raddisson, President, & Phillips....and soon to come online, the Citi Center. 

I can only believe he was misquoted...there really isn't any way the CVA president can be this misinformed, is there?

[kcdcchef]

i think what has largely doomed kansas city's number one product, the convention business, is the lack of hotel rooms near bartle. in a kansas city star piece i remember reading shortly after the new bartle hall expansion circa 1992 was getting done, they were speaking about what a traveler would see walking from the convention center, at that time, dead piegon and grafiti at the base of the then delapitated prez, a run down dump in the form of the americana, aka, the radisson, and cited that along with a lack of hotel rooms near the cc as the reason kc was getting kicked in the balls in the convention industry.

fast forward 15 years, and a LOT has changed, including 600 more hotel rooms, president and muehlbach, but the harsh reality is cities kc competes with for convention business, although our downtown is or will be WAY better, they have far more walkable hotel rooms. and EVERY time that the city talks about bringing in more hotel rooms, w, a new convention hotel, etc, everyone speaks about how it will hurt exsisting hotels. they are so fucking dumb, give me a break. more hotel rooms=more conventions kc cannot compete for presently, coming back, or looking at us in the first place. think about it, a year from now, the power and light district will be darn near complete save the condo tower part, and future condo towers, and one of the biggest pieces of the puzzle is finally done, a downtown where conventioneers are not bored off their ass, stuff to do, places to eat at that are actually open at nite, etc. but they will still be coming in from 15 miles out to go there, since the hotel rooms are spread out that far in kc.

who should fly the flag? omni hotels, a company i had the privilege of working for for a great many years, is regarded well in the hotel industry for providing a quality product, and kansas city could definitely use their presence dt. i think doing something similiar to the palace they just built in san diego, or the mammoth they have at the convention center in atlanta, would be desirable. and give the marriott a reason to finally finish the muehlbach.

[KCPowercat]

Good idea with Omni....I was thinking 4 Seasons but I don't think they do hotels that large, do they?

I think currently we have around 1,300 rooms walkable to bartle for conventions (1,700 total)...throw one more 200-300 room hotel up (the W) and a convention hotel of around 800, I think we've got about the right mix.

[Maitre D]

Good idea with Omni....I was thinking 4 Seasons but I don't think they do hotels that large, do they?

I think currently we have around 1,300 rooms walkable to bartle for conventions (1,700 total)...throw one more 200-300 room hotel up (the W) and a convention hotel of around 800, I think we've got about the right mix.

Sorry but I can only imagine what 1.6M people coming DT for a ballpark, would do for the Hotel industry.

The Sprint Center really needs an anchor, the more I think about it.  Even if the City / State has to subsidize part of it.  19K fans, 42x/yr......800K people coming down there.  I would guess 10% would need a hotel room.  That's 80K rooms.  220 rooms per day.

Recap:  220 rooms per day.  W hotel is bringing 200.  There's your math.

Think about it.  JUST for the NHL team.

[jimb]

Is that surface lot across Broadway being "reserved" for a future hotel?  IIRC, DST wanted to build something there and were asked (told?) not to to save the spot for a hotel.  The location makes great sense, there's nothing worth mentioning to knock down before getting started on it.

Once its built, there may be a temporary oversupply of rooms, but, as Chef said, you need the rooms to book the conventions.  The planner from The Really Big Convention Company of America is not going to sign on for their 2010 national trade show on the promise that "we'll bust our nuts to get a new hotel built in time for you.  Really.  Trust us."

I know it isn't as easy as building a Super 8 in Grain Valley.  These large hotels are enormously expensive and the contruction, management, financing, and all that are complicated.  But if the city doesn't get moving on this, the more opportunities will be missed.

[GRID]

KC should be simply in awe that W is even considering this market, let alone, the downtown loop.  That hotel will compete with the Fairmont and maybe the Westin and that's about it.  There are NO "modern", sophisticated, luxury hotels in KC.  A W will fill a void that is totally lacking in KC.

But, KC still desperately needs a new, large convention hotel in a modern structure.  It has been a long time since a new large hotel has been built in KC (Hyatt).

The convention industry of all people should understand how these hotels feed off one another.

Imagine this in the Power and Light District:



Then imagine a 30-50 story convention hotel, a 20-30 story GSA tower in the East Village and all the other towers planned.  Finally, KC's downtown will scream out to the nation and our own metro area that it's back and back in a big way.

CRITICAL MASS

[kcdcchef]

Is that surface lot across Broadway being "reserved" for a future hotel?  IIRC, DST wanted to build something there and were asked (told?) not to to save the spot for a hotel.  The location makes great sense, there's nothing worth mentioning to knock down before getting started on it.

Once its built, there may be a temporary oversupply of rooms, but, as Chef said, you need the rooms to book the conventions.  The planner from The Really Big Convention Company of America is not going to sign on for their 2010 national trade show on the promise that "we'll bust our nuts to get a new hotel built in time for you.  Really.  Trust us."

I know it isn't as easy as building a Super 8 in Grain Valley.  These large hotels are enormously expensive and the contruction, management, financing, and all that are complicated.  But if the city doesn't get moving on this, the more opportunities will be missed.

what a lot of these hoteliers fail to tell you is a simple fundamental truth.....................

nicer the hotel, lower the occupancy rate to get profit.

example, hyatt, in kc, sells hotel rooms during prime season at over $200. same with the westin, president, phillips. go to the marriott or radisson, you see rooms all of the time for like $120-$150. what this means is, hyatt for example, will run an annual occupancy of just under 70%. and make a damn fine profit. ( catering helps there too ) marriott, will run an occupancy over a year of just over 75% to make a profit. so my point is, these hotels in kansas city now are all hovering around 70%, but they bitch all of the time about how another hotel will cut into their profit margins, and hurt them.

no, it wont. it may lower their occupancy over a year by like 2%, if that, but the hotels it will hurt are the dumps near the airport, not the ones in the city. right now when a MAJOR convention comes to kc, they have people at kci, opk, plaza, westport, and some of the hotels they use to do that are really not that nice, and further, not indicative of where you want convention guests staying at.

the hoteliers of kansas city raised holy hell about the radisson hotel getting redone in the 1980's, about how it would kill them. and then they raised hell about the muehlbach in the early 1990's. then those two joined in the already tired bullshit argument to go against the omni. then the omni joined the previous two and the others to argue against the president. now, jury's group, the smartest of the group, has not spoken ONE WORD AT ALL about a new hotel going up. as a matter fact, ron jury has been the only one with the balls to say, yeah, kc for sure needs a large dt convention hotel. because we all benefit from it.

but it really is a tired and ignorant argument.

[Maitre D]

KC should be simply in awe that W is even considering this market, let alone, the downtown loop.  

True dat.

Then imagine a 30-50 story convention hotel, a 20-30 story GSA tower in the East Village and all the other towers planned.  Finally, KC's downtown will scream out to the nation and our own metro area that it's back and back in a big way.

CRITICAL MASS

I don't know about others, but I really wouldn't like being in the 50th floor of a hotel.  That woudl give me the willies.  Just me, I guess.  Also, I like staying at unique places like the President, rather than some big tall ugly monster.

[aknowledgeableperson]

no, it wont. it may lower their occupancy over a year by like 2%, if that, but the hotels it will hurt are the dumps near the airport, not the ones in the city. right now when a MAJOR convention comes to kc, they have people at kci, opk, plaza, westport, and some of the hotels they use to do that are really not that nice, and further, not indicative of where you want convention guests staying at.

I agree with you but consider this.  A new convention hotel will probably require a Super TIFF.  So now you would have this new hotel taking some business away from the other nearby hotels (with their own TIFF's and Super TIFF's) and from the hotels you mentioned (that do no have tax incentives so that will deduct from tax revenues).

If the new hotel does create a bigger overall demand then go for it.  On the other hand if it mostly redistributes current business the city has not gained much and could even lose.  This has to be studied and studied.  And use realistic numbers instead of creating numbers to justify the goal of a new hotel.

[KCPowercat]

have this new hotel taking some business away from the other nearby hotels

Maybe in the short term...but not an absolute.  The extra supply could spur demand and interest with bigger conventions.


What the KC hotel industry needs are some more rate setters....places like the Intercontinental are an embarrassment when you look at their rates....that kills all the other hotels when your "4 stars" are cutting rates to get market. 

Hotels maybe increasing occupancy, but if the revenue per room sucks, doesn't mean much.

[trailerkid]

It's complete bunk to say that W will hurt the Hilton and Hotel Phillips. Do these consultants have any idea what W Hotels are? You would probably get some visitors from the region who come specifically to pamper themselves at the W. The W Hotel customer is generally not the same as the Hilton customer although there may be a bit of an overlap. It's pretty much like saying that Standard Style will hurt business at Brooks Brothers.

As for the HQ hotel...I'd like to see Renaissance(like the downtown StL one) or Sheraton. What if we brought in Swissotel and really mixed things up?  I would also appreciate if they actually brought in a reputable architect instead of doing the typical flat-panel box for such an imposing project.

KC should be simply in awe that W is even considering this market, let alone, the downtown loop. 

Downtown Dallas isn't exactly the most exciting place on Earth either. My guess is that Cordish will bend the city over to bring in W. I say the city should take it like a man and finally do something aggresive that will turn heads in the Midwest. We need to create more stirs in the urban core and get people talking. W brings a level of cosmopolitan credibility to downtown that Hilton or whatever else can't.

[Thrillcekr]

Kinda sounds to me like the decision the city will have to make in regard to providing incentives to Cordish to add the hotel portion to the P&L condos just became a lot easier.

[im2kull]

YEAH!! If ANYTHING...I would expect a "W" hotel to DRAW more people in to use the boutique hotels...

The City's arguement is fiercly retarded at best...

1. We're talking two different crowds here...
    A. $100 per night regular hotel crowd (aka..convention hotel..marriott..etc...)
    B. $250-infitinty per night Boutique hotels (aka.."W"..hotel phillips perhaps, idk..muehlbach?)
of note: There is ZERO blending/gray area...your either in or your out...and they DO NOT effect each other in negative ways...maybe within their own groups..perhaps..but not across A to B or vice versa *contrary to the citys argument in their new awesome DT hotel report  :lol: *

EITHER WAY...the POINT IS... A "W" Hotel DT..will only DRAW in MORE people to USE more BOUTIQUE HOTELS...not take away any form of business from a standard hotel....even the phillips and other nice places would GAIN from a great name hotel like "W" being located downtown...and all us people would gain from the competition...enough said...


...so WTF is the issue KC????

Laymans Terms
Nice Hotel > Normal Hotel

Nice Hotel = Draw for more rich folk = Spending = Tax Dollars = Positive impact on ALL Hotels = BUILD HOTELS & MORE DEMAND

Normal Hotel = Conventions = Spending = Tax Dollars = Positive Impact = More Demand = *up to the city at this point*


This city's management is a Hazard to itself*

[scooterj]

I watched the City Council session Thursday where the importance of the 1000 room hotel was presented and the presentation made a lot of sense.  Conventions wanting to put all their people in one location instead of spreading them all over.  It sounded like the location they want to put it is directly across 14th from the Power & Light Building, between the new ballroom and the Empire Theater.

They talked about how the Marriott is currently our best convention hotel but that it's not even close to what thee cities we compete most with for conveentions have to offer.  Bland, medicore, aging.  But necessary, even if the new hotel is built.

One interesting part of it was they were talking about how the Westin is currently the closest thing we have to a good convention hotel.    What was noteworthy about this was that they said in many cities the distance from the Westin to Bartle would be considered walking distance, but in Kansas City there is a perception that it is not walking distance because there is no continuity in-between.  They stressed the importance of improving the streetscapes and promoting infill in the Crossroads to remove the perception that Crown Center is too far to walk.    (And they're right... it only take about 15-20 minutes to walk from Crown Center to Bartle Hall but it looks a lot farther.)

[ShowMeKC]

Hmm, instead of a 1,000 room hotel, I'd like to see the W hotel built, and 2-3 other additional hotels that all add up to 1,000 rooms.

[eliphar17]

I watched the City Council session Thursday where the importance of the 1000 room hotel was presented and the presentation made a lot of sense.  Conventions wanting to put all their people in one location instead of spreading them all over.  

Dang what is hard to understand about this? People continue to talk as if they don't grasp this idea. The 1,000 rooms are being mentioned as a SINGLE building, not an overall increase.

Hmm, instead of a 1,000 room hotel, I'd like to see the W hotel built, and 2-3 other additional hotels that all add up to 1,000 rooms.

The W Hotel debate is really outside this 1,000-room question. The W Hotel debate is about whether it's fair of the city to give money to yet another hotel and, in doing so, pile more risk onto their current investments. (For those who understand: What if you had a stock portfolio with betas all near 1, and you wanted to make another investment, but doing so would increase all the other betas to 1.5? Would that be smart?)

[KCPowercat]

for those who might have more hotel insight....is there something magical about the 1000 room level?  If the W were to be built, would building a ~800 room hotel give us the 2nd convention hotel we need and get us to the magically level of rooms w/in walking distance of Bartle?

Just seems if you have a chance to land a brand like W, you should do it.  If the convention hotel could be cut back a little, you aren't introducing as much supply into the market, yet getting the convention level hotel and a solid brand.

[kcdcchef]

for those who might have more hotel insight....is there something magical about the 1000 room level?  If the W were to be built, would building a ~800 room hotel give us the 2nd convention hotel we need and get us to the magically level of rooms w/in walking distance of Bartle?

Just seems if you have a chance to land a brand like W, you should do it.  If the convention hotel could be cut back a little, you aren't introducing as much supply into the market, yet getting the convention level hotel and a solid brand.

generally in the hotel business when a hotel hits 1,000 rooms that is the magical number at which generally speaking, you can house all of the key parties for a large convention at one building, some of those 10k type conventions literally have a thousand people that are just that important, so they can stay in house to do meetings before going to the convention center, etc.

also once a hotel is at a thousand, generally speaking the exhibit space goes up considerably, and therefore doing stuff periphially to what is going on at the cc is very important. hyatt and westin have always helped kc stay where it was in the convention market without losing more, since they provided 1,500 rooms all connected with the link system and all the exhibit space.

but in the end, these meeting and convention planners, really desire a thousand room hotel so it can all happen under one roof and only the major parts of the convention, dinners, dances, meet and greets, actually take place at the convention center.

if you look at bartle and the biggest convention it hosted annually, the grand dame of all, the ffa, very little of their stuff actually took place at bartle. they had an exhibition one day, a meeting one night, and a
dinner one night. all that, in 7 days. the rest took place in the bottoms, at crown center, in hotel ballrooms and meeting rooms, etc.

so, to add a thousand rooms in 3-5 more hotels would help kc's cause GREATLY in the convention field, but the reality of that is only in attracting conventions in general, not attracting the plum's of the convention business. they will still stay away.

[ShowMeKC]

I'm just hoping they come up with a design that isn't like the sketches put up by HNTB. (which apparenlty were just a vision and not reflective of what could happen)

I'd like to see a hotel that isn't like the Hyatt and is architecturally interesting and complements the Power and Light Building (instead of being like a large wall to the south of it).

[KansasCityChiefs]

Personally, I would like to see a 1,000 room hotel go up. Yes, most conventions like to have all their people in one hotel, not spread out. But my opinion doesn't matter, I have no say in deciding what will happen.